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Thanks for that Nick,
Ok, it looks very informitive and from the first page (p7) I can see it saying "general Arming of the Army from 1821 to 1992", it looks like the book is structured in such a way that its made up by a multiple of books and even gets into the arming of diferent states as well. nice..
I think I would have liked more good quality photos and close up's of individual rifles with their markings though. By first glance at these few pages it definately is for the advanced collector with very indepth information.

Thanks once again Nick ,, and HEY there JPS !!!! ;)
 

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Gnutti of Brescia: a Long-standing Steel Forging and Manufacturing Company in the Brescia District, with numerous Foundries and Forging Plants. Initially set up in 1920s to make Castings and Forgings for the Railways, they speciallised in making Ball and Roller Bearings sometime around 1950s. In the 1920s,& during WW II their Forging capacity was also utilised by Beretta and the Gardone/Brescia Army Workshops, for Blade manufacture for Bayonets.

(a lot of M38 folding Blades were made by Gnutti.) They were now one of the major makers of Rolling stock wheel bearings across Europe.( Roller bearing section sold to Timken, 1997)

Now engaged in precision Power-train and castings for Engine building of all types

"Eredi Gnutti" The Heirs to the Gnutti Enterprise. I will further research the Name and Business via the Italian Wiki and Google. See "ErediGnutti" or gnutticarlo.it on the Web

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics
Brisbane Australia
 

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...I think I would have liked more good quality photos and close up's of individual rifles with their markings though...
I'm sooo soft-hearted...
 

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Hello to all,
The majority of the short "M95 Greek" Mannlicher bayonets appearing often on ebay are ex Greek M1903 Mannlicher bayonets captured by the Bulgarians and altered by them to fit on their M95 rifles. The only alteration on them is the larger muzzle ring and the shorter crossguard. ... And yes, the scabbard is the right one for this M1903/14 and the bayonet's MRD must be 14mm.
Best regards,
Giannis.
Thanks for you information on the Greek Mannlicher 1895/1903, which I greatly appreciate as I have recently bought what seems to be one of these. I'd be glad of further help on identifying it!

It has the small St.George and dragon mark on the pommel; the OEWG mark on one ricasso, the letter 'G' on the other (I assume for the German 'Graecische'?); serial numbers ending with the Greek letter GAMMA on the crossguard; scabbard with small cross in circle over OEWG; and a plain unmarked frog. The muzzle ring diameter matches my FGGY Bulgarian FGGY so I assume it has been reemed out.

But what was the MRD of the original Greek 1895/1903? And as there are no Bulgarian marks anywhere on bayonet or scabbard, do I have a Bulgarian 'capture' or a Greek 're-used' for a captured Bulgarian rifle?

Any help greatly appreciated!

Trajan
 

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OEWG = Österreichische Waffenfabriksgesellschaft. I am not sure what you mean by "1895/03 Mannlicher".

Most likely you have a Bulgarian captured Greek bayonet for the Y1903, which was reworked by replacing the cross guard with one for the M.95. The original Y1903 bayonets were almost exactly like the Austrian M.95 bayonets except for the different guard (muzzle ring diameter and its distance from lock).
 

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Thanks! I realised the Greek letter GAMMA after the serial number (1354) on my 1895/1903 Greek bayonet might be the Bulgarian equivalent of their GARRA, but your reply made me compare the 1895 Greek with the 1895 Bulgarian more closely. And the cross guard rivets on the 1895/1903 Greek are bigger than those on the 1895 Bulgarian, so, yes, I can understand that the crossguard could have been replaced after the bayonet was captured by the Bulgarians. So, a problem apparently solved. A Greek 1895/1903 captured by the Bulgarians and the cross guard replaced.

BUT, I would have thought that the Bulgarians would have erased the Greek St.George and/or overstamped a Bulgarian Lion... For example, my unmodified Turkish 1891 has the Sultan's symbol on the pommel, and my 1929 modified 1891 has the symbol removed and the Turkish Republic stamp ASFA placed there. So, in this case, COULD the muzzle ring of my 1895/1903 Greek have been reemed out by the Greeks to fit a captured Bulgarian rifle? This is why I wondered about the MRD of the Greek 1895/1905!!!

Trajan

EDIT: 1895/1903 Greek Mannlicher - my understanding was (I am happy to be corrected!) that the Greeks adopted a new Mannlicher rifle in 1903 with a different muzzle ring diameter to the standard Mannlicher Steyr and so need a new bayonet to fit this.
 

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1895/1903 Greek Mannlicher - my understanding was (I am happy to be corrected!) that the Greeks adopted a new Mannlicher rifle in 1903 with a different muzzle ring diameter to the standard Mannlicher Steyr and so need a new bayonet to fit this.
Mannlicher Y1903 is the first Mannlicher design adopted by the Greek army. It was slightly modified later (Y1903/14), but was basically the same gun. All other Mannlicher rifles and carbines in Greek service are Bulgarian captures and reparations, which came after the Second Balkan War and after WWI. The above quoted book by Sazanidis has a really good inventory of all guns in Greek service.

I have one such modified Y1903 bayonet with the St. George still intact. Why these markings were not obliterated is unknown to me. The Serbs also didn't touch the Bulgarian crest when reworking thousands of M.95s to M.95M.
 

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... I have one such modified Y1903 bayonet with the St. George still intact. Why these markings were not obliterated is unknown to me. The Serbs also didn't touch the Bulgarian crest when reworking thousands of M.95s to M.95M.
Thanks for the info. Evidently, erasing original markings was not considered a necessity by some nations when using captured or requistioned weapons, no matter how surprising that might seem. In fact I remember reading somewhere that the Waffenamt marks on the ex-Wehrmacht rifles and bayonets supplied to the Israeli's before the 1948 War were left in place... And wasn't it the case (I seem to remember) that the German Bundeswehr Honour Guard was still using Waffenamt marked rifles and bayonets until relatively recently?

Having said all that, what WAS the difference(s) - if any - between the standard Mannlicher 1895 bayonet and those supplied to Greece in 1903? Length (i.e., height) of crossguard? Height of muzzle ring above the bayonet spine? Sorry to bother you with might seem inane questions, but I do like to get my facts right when learning about a specific bayonet!

Trajan

Trajan.
 

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For whatever reason the Greek Y1903 bayonet is pretty obscure, possibly because of its similarity with the Austrian M.95 bayonet. Kiesling doesn't describe it at all, Jansen incorrectly describes its Bulgarian rework as "Greek M1895 bayonet". So far I have only seen it described in one book and once "in person" - a captured one in Bulgaria that survived without being reworked (being in private hands).

Here is a scan of a very poor photo from Christos Sazanidis' book "The Arms of Hellenes". Bayonet #3 is the bayonet in question. The dimensions that differ from the Bulgarian rework are those of the cross-guard only. Muzzle ring diameter = 14 mm, distance from the handle to the bottom of the muzzle ring = 17.8 mm

 

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The dimensions that differ from the Bulgarian rework are those of the cross-guard only. Muzzle ring diameter = 14 mm, distance from the handle to the bottom of the muzzle ring = 17.8 mm
Nick,

Finally home and checked and rechecked the distance from the handle to the bottom of the muzzle ring on my 'Greek' Mannlicher 1895 and it is about 17.8 mm (one of the kids has 'mislaid' my calipers - but it is certainly close to 18 mm!). I also checked and rechecked my 'Bulgarian' Mannlicher bayonet and it is 13 mm or so (rather rusted!)...

So if I understand you correctly, I have an unaltered Greek Mannlicher bayonet? And so a pretty rare item? In which case, what is it - a Mannlicher 1895/Y1903? A Mannlicher Y1903?

Thanks again for your help earlier, without which I would not have not this far - and looking foward to your comments on this news!

Trajan

EDIT: without which I would not have GOT this far(!!!)
 

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... what is it - a Mannlicher 1895/Y1903? A Mannlicher Y1903?
According to your dimensions and the above book it appears that you have a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Y1903 bayonet. Congrats, you got an uncommon bayonet!
 

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According to your dimensions and the above book it appears that you have a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Y1903 bayonet. Congrats, you got an uncommon bayonet!
GREAT! I also checked the muzzle ring diameter you gave and this also fits with it being a Greek 'Schoenaeur'. I found it in the local monthly 'Antique Market' - presumably it got 'left behind' after the Turkish War of Independence against the Greeks. I bought it mainly because of the Greek markings and its frog to go as a companion piece with the really ropey condition FGGY Bulgarian Mannlicher 1895 I already had (and an OEWG Czech/Bulgarian I am thinking about). So, I am mighty pleased that not only is it a nice looking bayonet, but it is also an 'oddity'!

A couple of final questions if I may - at least with this one! (1), how to catalogue it? Mannlicher 1895/Y1903? Or as a Mannlicher Y1903? (2), and excuse my ignorance - what does the 'Y' stand for?

Thanks again for your input on this one! VERY much appreciated!

Trajan

EDIT: found the W*****a article on the MS 1903 rifle, where it states 'The original Steyr-made Y1903 ('Y' stands for model in Greek)', so that's cleared up. It seems there is no way of dating my bayonet closely, given the various contracts between Greece and Steyr (in 1906, 1914 and 1930, according to W*****a), although as it has larger rivets on the cross-guard than those on my Bulgarian M1895, I would hazard a guess it is probably post-WWI.
 

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It seems there is no way of dating my bayonet closely, given the various contracts between Greece and Steyr (in 1906, 1914 and 1930, according to W*****a), although as it has larger rivets on the cross-guard than those on my Bulgarian M1895, I would hazard a guess it is probably post-WWI.
The short bayonets were only made prior to 1914, hence they are called Y1903 after the rifle & carbine model. After that the longer Y1903/14 were made (Y = ΥΠΟΔΕΙΓΜΑ, model)

Some Gras Y1874 bayonets got reworked for the Y1903 & Y1903/14:





 

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The short bayonets were only made prior to 1914, hence they are called Y1903 after the rifle & carbine model. After that the longer Y1903/14 were made (Y = ΥΠΟΔΕΙΓΜΑ, model)

Some Gras Y1874 bayonets got reworked for the Y1903 & Y1903/14:

Finally! I have that exact bayonet (bottom one). I have been looking all over and asked here what I had but could find nothing. It is a Steyr 1885 Gras bayonet that has had the muzzle ring reworked. So this is for the Greek Y1903 or Y1903/14 rifle? Thanks Nick!

Slightly separate question: The bayonet is fairly covered in non-active rust, though not really any pitting. Would it harm the value to use some oil and bronze wool on it?
 

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So this is for the Greek Y1903 or Y1903/14 rifle?
For either, there is no difference in attaching points dimensions. I would remove the rust with WD40 & a bronze brush.
 

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Hello Gents,

Here are shots of the Greek rifles and bayonets in my collection. The only thing I lack is an original Y1903 knife bayonet. I have several different variations of the Greek Gras bayonet conversion as well as the original Greek Gras as produced by Steyr for the Greek contract Y1874 Rifle.

Please keep an eye out for an original unaltered Y1903 knife bayonet for me Nick!

The photos include two M1903/14 Austro-Hungarian commandeered rifles that were issued to A-H troops early in the war.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

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The short bayonets were only made prior to 1914, hence they are called Y1903 after the rifle & carbine model. After that the longer Y1903/14 were made (Y = ΥΠΟΔΕΙΓΜΑ, model)... Some Gras Y1874 bayonets got reworked for the Y1903 & Y1903/14:
Thanks, Nick, for Y1914 info..

Re: the Gras. Did you see my thread on my 'odd' Greek Gras bayonet? Mine has the same recess behind the crossguard as on your upper photo top example, and the same WAFFENFABRIK script on the spine as your lower photo bottom example. The top one is a French Gras fitting? So mine is at least a Gras? But it has what I was thinking is a Mannlicher type mortice? Then the problem with the serials and inspection marks, etc., on this one. It bugs me. (BTW, I can't even be certain it has an adjusting screw... It has been so rusted and over-cleaned that it MIGHT be a rivet. I doubt it as the diameter of the 'head' is larger than that of the bottom.)

Many of my queries I suspect are things that an experienced collector could dismiss as simplicities - but as a beginner with no reference works save Kiesling and no collections to compare things with all help is appreciated!

Trajan
 
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