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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
GP 11 Swiss 7.5 ammo has a thin film of waxy stuff on the bullet and it shoots very accurately.

Curious about that, I experimented with my M38 Mosin carbine using a milsurp load of Czech laquar 1950 era stuff Light ball ammo: this stuff shoots for crap in all my rifles but one. The M38 shoots it in a six inch circle...a beaten zone , not a group. I shot 5 of those. I then shot 5 of same ammo which had the bullets dipped in Lee Liquid Alox and dried for 3 days: similiar wax like feel as the Swiss GP 11 has on the bullets.

Results: 5 rds in a straight line going verticle . Rds were all perfectly lined up like I was breathing and that threw them off from all grouping. I am going to do this again and make sure I am not breathing and messing this up. I am shooting at 100 yds , iron sights out of a totally untouched M38 with a hard trigger as issued.

Nothing conclusive but I am curious of these results so far.
 

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The grease is wax. It's main purpose is to seal the powder from any moisture. This was used with only the GP11 ammo that had the four crimp crimping which is about 3mm below the neck. That type of crimping doesn't seal the neck very well. There are a couple of years in the early 80's which the GP11 ammo has no wax seal at all,the #2 on the case head stamp will indicate this.

Some say it shoot better with the wax and some say there is no difference. There is actually a tool you can buy to apply the wax seal to either the GP11 or GP90 if you so choose Page 16 Item 118 http://www.wysswaffen.ch/Dokumente/Eigenprodukte2009.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Tentex32,

I shot the 5 rds and then took a look thru the spotting scope so no clue if the effect is due to your theory: very likely it could be.

Will re shoot it and spot every round. With this green steel cased Czech 50 era LPS , I was not expecting anything meaningful on the paper
as does not like my rifles but oddly, if I transplant the powder and bullet and reload it to duplicate seating depth of orig. Czech round, using Privi
new brass and Win LR primers, its shoots deadly accurate. I suspect the steel case and old corrosive primers do llittle for accuracy.

Nevertheless: the lube wax film will be repeated for further tests. I got a verticle string but its the tightest 5 rounds I ever saw this stuff do and
without it on the bullets...just crap wad of shots.

One poster talked about the grease seal. I have one box of GP 11 with that on it. All my other GP11 does not but is late 80 era stuff
and it all has bullets with a light wax coating on them...very so thin but you can feel it.

Anyhow will test further. Might dilute this Alox Lee stuff so it films very thin like the wax on the GP11 rounds.

Maybe the Swiss were onto something or maybe this is all fleeting nonsense. Anyhow, will kick the can and

post what happens. As to the K31 rifle: mine shoots GP11 as good as Privi commercial (non wax on bullets)

ammo so my theory is the K31 rifle barrel has no real preference although there are times when GP11 does

shoot a hair tighter groups.
 

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Tentex32,

I shot the 5 rds and then took a look thru the spotting scope so no clue if the effect is due to your theory: very likely it could be.

Will re shoot it and spot every round. With this green steel cased Czech 50 era LPS , I was not expecting anything meaningful on the paper
as does not like my rifles but oddly, if I transplant the powder and bullet and reload it to duplicate seating depth of orig. Czech round, using Privi
new brass and Win LR primers, its shoots deadly accurate. I suspect the steel case and old corrosive primers do llittle for accuracy.

Nevertheless: the lube wax film will be repeated for further tests. I got a verticle string but its the tightest 5 rounds I ever saw this stuff do and
without it on the bullets...just crap wad of shots.

One poster talked about the grease seal. I have one box of GP 11 with that on it. All my other GP11 does not but is late 80 era stuff
and it all has bullets with a light wax coating on them...very so thin but you can feel it.

Anyhow will test further. Might dilute this Alox Lee stuff so it films very thin like the wax on the GP11 rounds.

Maybe the Swiss were onto something or maybe this is all fleeting nonsense. Anyhow, will kick the can and

post what happens. As to the K31 rifle: mine shoots GP11 as good as Privi commercial (non wax on bullets)

ammo so my theory is the K31 rifle barrel has no real preference although there are times when GP11 does

shoot a hair tighter groups.
I did a comparison of Bulgarian, Russian and Czech steel case milsurp ammo with my Finn M39 last year. Grouping was about the same, but the Czech was slightly, but noticeably tighter grouping. However, the Czech cases had powder residue along the entire length of the case, while the Bulgy and Russian cases showed residue only at the neck. So, although the Czech shot tighter, it was obturating (sealing at the chamber throat) the worst. Since I don't like blowby gas carrying corrosive primer salts into the rifle's action, I won't shoot the Czech ammo anymore. The brass case Serbian M30 is available and is a much more agreeable load for my Finn's.

Getting back to waxed bullets, and the reason for my lengthy preamble, I suspect that the Alox improved obturation at the chamber throat, and as it built up, muzzle velocity increased. So, I suspect that your vertical string firing Alox'ed Czech ammo started high and subsequent rounds dropped.

While this may seem counterintuitive, consider that at lower velocity the bullet has more time to rise as it exits the barrel and begins the ascending part of the trajectory. As MV increases, the bullet rises less as it travels to the 100 yard target.

I'll be awaiting the results of your repeat experiment with interest.
 

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Lubing with wax is fine. Back in the old days (around 1900 or so), serious target shooters used to lube the bullets with true grease or light oil. This worked okay for BP cartridges with low pressures, but several guns were blown up when they tried this in the 30-06. Turns out the lube was getting into the chamber and preventing the brass from sealing against the pressure - result - blown receiver. Read all about it in Hatcher's Notebook. If you're using wax, you are okay.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
KRAGLUVER: I am putting a film of wax on the bullets like on the GP11 Swiss Ammo . K31 rifles do very well with this ammo. The term lubing is probably a wrong term to use for what I am experimenting with. I am not greasing or lubing. I am putting a thin coat of Alox lube on the bullet only. My second test did not vertically string so that was my breathing. What it did do was shrink the pattern of the inaccurate Czech ammo from foot to about 4 inches and tightened the impact area (not a group yet but a pattern). I am now going to test this waxed bullet theory on Pole LPS which does shoot accurately in this weapon and note the results and report out on it.
 

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I realized you were using wax (as we do in cast bullet shooting) - I just didn't want other readers to come in here and read this thinking, "well I'll just start adding grease or oil to my bullets". That could lead to unsafe bolt forces as the brass cartridge case would fail to grip the chamber.

Interesting timing on this topic - I was just reading one of E.C. Crossman's books (Military Sporting Rifle Shooting) night before last and this very topic was covered by him. He discussed coating bullets with light oil and saw improvements in group size but he also warned that bolt thrust would be increased if oil flowed back into the chamber.
 

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That could lead to unsafe bolt forces as the brass cartridge case would fail to grip the chamber.
Kinda off topic but some of the recomendations I've seen for cleaning "cosmoline" from the chamber make me think risky...wrapping abrasive papers and spinning with a drill, polishing compounds, etc. I don't like seeing those type posts, especially for young shooters. Am I correct to be cautious with the chambers like this? Or paranoid as usual? lol.
 

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Kinda off topic but some of the recomendations I've seen for cleaning "cosmoline" from the chamber make me think risky...wrapping abrasive papers and spinning with a drill, polishing compounds, etc. I don't like seeing those type posts, especially for young shooters. I'm I correct to be cautious with the chambers like this? Or paranoid as usual? lol.
Safety is never OT. There's a saying: "there are old pilots, and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots." I think the same applies to handloaders.

Petroleum oil and grease have no business in a high pressure rifle chamber during firing. Sure, some old MG's like the Schwarzlose and the Japanese copy of the Hotchkiss used cartridge oilers, but that is because they lacked primary extraction.

I eject my cases onto a mat so they don't roll around. I pick up each case, check the primer and neck and replace it in its box. A bulging or pierced primer means something. So does a split neck. Better old than bold.
 
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