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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I'm new to old guns and this forum hope you guys can help me out with this one.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/France/Gras.htm

I just bought a Gras rifle that was made in England

GRAS S/S B/A SERVICE RIFLE: 11mm; 32½" barrel; breech marked kynoch-gun-factory aston; receiver kynoch patent; clear markings; blackened finish to barrel, receiver, furniture & fittings; S/N 72155

Kynoch only operated a gun factory for 3 years 1885 to 1888.

I am curious about this rifles history it is the same as the Gras in the link above except for the bolt which doesn't have the scalloped and knurled section, its all round.

I will post pics as soon as I have some decent ones of the markings

Hope someone can shed some light on this for me

Regards

Dave
 

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Greetings,

I know the British altered Chassepot rifles into the cartridge firing Gras rifle and I have seen several of them. They are not very common. I would be anxious to see pictures.
 

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Kynoch Gras

Kynoch manufactured rifles in various calibres for sale to sportsmen etc based on the French Gras if you have a look at a military Gras you will see there are a few differences with the bolt etc, dont assume because its based on a Gras that the calibre will be 11x59R as they also were chambered by Kynoch in serveral calibres including 11.15x60 so a chamber cast will be important, I had a look at that rifle at the Rollys last auction and was not able to tell what calibre it may be chambered for. Assuming that where you picked it up from as they are not very common in Australia.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Mech481 thats the one, I have cleaned up the barrel and it is in very good condition nice and bright, haven't used anything but crc to clean it with. Don't know if i will shoot it yet but will probably look into brass from Bertrams after I sort out which calibre it is. pics coming soon
 

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Kynoch converted Chassepots

These "Kynoch Gun Factory Acton" were a short-lived conversion job on Franco-Prussian war surplus Chassepot (needle fire) Muskets, to use a Brass cartridge. The Bolt firing mechanism is slightly different to the French Gras-Chassepot conversion (M1866/74), and the chambering may NOT be 11x59R M1874 Gras, but is normally ".433-77-385" (closer to 11x60R Mauser M71).
These were conversions for "Trade Guns", and most ended up in Africa and other colonial areas (Abyssinia was one favoured destination).
I have one (Brisbane) and have seen a couple more around. Usually a Mauser M71 cartridge will fit, but a Gras cartridge will not. The only sure way is to wax cast the chamber and measure.

Good luck.
regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics
 

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The Gras rifles built for the French Army, whether newbuilt or rechambered Chassepots were all made by French military arsenals.

kelt
 

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I have one of these Kynoch conversions and it is most definately NOT 11x59R Gras but 11.15x60R Mauser.

Mine has the same markings with the addition of "MUSKET 43 - 77 - 380" on the right side of the reciever. It will accept a Gras bayonet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I recieved this reply from Peter Smithurst the Senior Curator of Firearms at the Royal Armouries

"Hello Dave,
our rifle is marked identically - but no indication of where it was destined for! All I can say is that theKynoch Gun factory operated from 1885 - 1889. At this time George Kynoch had, or was developing, business interests in South Africa so that may have been the desitination. The rifles were apparently made up from left over parts for the Chassepots manufactured in Birmingham 20 years earlier

Peter."

If anyone else has any info or recognizes of the cartouche marks I would appreciate it

Regards
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hi Guys,

Thanks to everyone for their responses, I think that what info has been posted is very interesting and if $1299 is a reasonable price then I think that I got a bargain.

If anyone comes across anymore info I would appreciate hearing it.

Thanks to all again

Dave
 

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Hey guys, finally found a little information on these rifles by reading this thread.

My father has one of the Kynoch 43-77-380 muskets, but it was missing the bolt when he bought it. Ideally it would be nice to have a bolt, however in the event that it is just not possible to find one, he might be willing to part with it.

Some more info on the rifle:
*Appears to have everything minus a bolt
*Has gouges and scratches on the stock but nothing is broken, all metal parts appear to be in good condition
*Has "I.R.G. N.Y. CO. D. 28" stamped on the left side above the butt-plate
*It has a strap on it (on it when he bought it), but it looks more like a U.S. adjustable leather military strap, which might make sense given the markings stamped on stock, but the origins are unknown

If anyone might be interested (in lieu of not finding a bolt) pictures can be provided.

Thanks for the help guys!
 

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Kynoch Chassepot 11.15x60 conversion stock

Hi guys,

I don't know if Trader Joe is still considering selling his boltless one or not, but I am in need of a suitable stock and lower/rear stock hardware for said rifle, I have been toying with making on out of an otherwise junk K. Kale Turk Mauser stock which is slowly getting to fit up, but I would REALLY like to find an orig, even to the point I was gonna take a chance with Old Western Scroungers' ditch gun deal and hope I got one, but alas by the time I called they were out. Any help would greatly be appreciated as I'd like to shoot the thing after years of having it there in the case looking pitiful!!!

Thanks.
 
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