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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have just shot the m27rv (the one UPS "lost" and then found after two weeks) side-by-side with my 1912 Mosin 1907 Carbine.

The pictures of the contestants first: At a fighting weight of 9 pounds unloaded, with a 24 inch barrel, wearing all-original, matching numbers and original stock with unit disc....coming to you from Finland's frozen North...the m27rv Cavalry Carbine!.......

At 7 1/2 pounds, coming to you from the wilds of the Ural Mountains, featuring matching numbers and nearly all-original but recovering from a recent near loss with Bubba, competing in a 91/59 stock, weighing in at a sleek 7 1/2 pounds with a 20 inch barrel...Comrade Izhevsk Mosin 1907 Carbine!...applause, applause, applause...



Each has submitted their bullet-in-the-muzzle test proving their bores are up to the task, and have been duly checked out with a go-no go gauge to see that they don't prove embarrassing in the ring. Also, three rounds of Czech low-recoil practice ammo have been fired through each, just toi make sure the smoke comes out the right end.

Finn dummy rounds were carefully cycled through each rifle after a very careful cleaning to make sure things ran smoothly for the old warhorses. Dummy rounds are a lot better for this than live ones if things don't go so well in the cycle!




The sights have been examined, front and rear:



Serial numbers were checked, just to be sure nobody was sneaking in a ringer - trying to pass off a Remington 700 bull barrel as a 1907 Carbine.:
Can't be too careful these days:


The targets were set up at just 50 yards to start and the nice "D" on the Finn meant we could shoot Russian ammo. I chose good old Novosibirsk "188" milsurp silvertip light ball and new Russian white box "LVE 11" light ball. I figured 50 yards was a good sort of cavalry distance to start at.

So, here it goes:


Just for a warmup, I shot at the 325 yard gong three times with the m27rv, getting hits two out of three times with milsurp 188 and "Kentucky windage." Remember, the rifle hadn't been fired in a long, long time, so that was a good surprise. Then I tried three shots at the gong with the 1907 Carbine and got one hit, which I later understood better..
At 50 yards, I shot the following targets of sandbags, with a front rest:



TARGET SCANS ARE TOO LARGE TO POST - CONTINUED BELOW! LOOK DOWN FOR MORE.
 

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Very happy for you SG! :)
Collecting these is just too darn addicting, isn't it?
 

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There we go! All I saw was the first picture of the two and thought something was amiss.

Nice report…glad to see you have two good-shooting rare Mosin's. I always thought people need to shoot more of their collections than keeping them trapped in a safe all the time! It really gets you to fully enjoy them IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Continued:

From 50 yards, off a forward rest, with a variable 20 knot gusting wind, here are the results. I had to shoot the 1907 faster than I wished, resulting in heating barrel reduced accuracy, because the wind was coming up fast to well over 20 knot gusts. Better iron sight shooters can probably top this easily and next time I may use a lead sled to even the odds a bit more. Also, I need some 100 yards tests, but here's a start:

m27rv IMPRESSIONS: The m27rv feels quite heavy, and at 9 pounds it weighs more than a Mosin Dragoon or 91/30 and a full 1 1/2 pounds more than the 1907 carbine. It is about 4 inches longer and because of the thicker and heavier barrel it actually feels even heavier on the shoulder. It has the usual 2 stage beautiful Finn trigger, breaking at perhaps 5 pounds. Still, that is a lug to carry bouncing on your back on a horse, perhaps better suited to mounted infantry than quick light cavalry. The turned-down bolt handle is great -knurled on the lower surface for a fine grip, capable of being fired from the shoulder. Still, it lacks the quick and agile feeling of a modern sporting rifle or of an M38, a Carcano or other lighter, shorter carbines.

RESULTS: M27rv with 188 silvertip light ball shot a 2.1 inch 5-shot group, then with new "LVE 11" light ball a 1.5 inch 5-shot group and a 1.9 inch 5-shot group, with occasional gusty winds and a cooling rest of over three minutes between rounds. Rounds were fired with no more than 30 seconds between each shot.

Average group size was 1.83 group size, or a 3.7 MOA accuracy if this holds to 100 yards. With new LVE the group average was just 1.7 inches or 3.4 MOA.


1907 Carbine IMPRESSIONS: If you have shot a good M38, you have shot a 1907 Carbine clone as the M38 is almost identical except for sights and a few stock variations. Same weight, same action, same barrel length, same lousy trigger. The 1907 carbine is very comfortable and quick in the hands, feeling just like an M38 as it weighs the same, just 7 1/2 pounds. The lighter barrel puts the weight back a bit further, so it feels even lighter than it is, but the thinner barrel reduces accuracy as it quickly heats up, throwing the 5th shot of fairly rapid fire high each time, a trait shared by many later Mosins. It had an absolutely all-original horrible trigger, very smooth but requiring over 10 pounds pull to get it to go bang, a huge drawback for accuracy even though I am very strong in the hands - this trigger is grim even by Mosin standards. The simple blade and notch sight seemed very easy to use and faster than the m27rv "Spitzer" sights, resembling old Winchesters and other deer rifles in visibility of the blade and notch. A longer sighting plane would have helped my fading eyesight.
With a better trigger, this would be a great rifle. The straight bolt handle means you really need to drop the rifle to cycle the bolt easily, a bit of a drawback on horseback.

RESULTS: The 1907 Carbine was next, shooting a full 8 inches high at 50 yards. This lends some credence to the idea that a reduced load may have been issued to the cavalry as the rifle groups well but high with more modern light ball at moderate range - it surely never was intended for any long range sniping. :


It managed with its first shots to put a a 4 shot group into just 1.1 inches (2.2 MOA) with new Novosibirsk LVE light ball, spoiled by a flyer as the barrel heated, bringing the group to 2.4 inches on a windy day, or 4.8 MOA. Barrel heating was a factor even at 5 shots, with the last shot always seeming to go high.

I didn't wait for the barrel to cool as I did with the m27rv because the wind was coming up hard, going directly to the next targets with less than a minute wait and 30 seconds or less between shots. This reduced accuracy with the thin barrel heating quickly.

The next group was shot with 188 silvertip milsurp, seeing if maybe the rifle shot high because of new ammo. Nope, still 8 inches high at 50 yards, shooting 4 into 2.3 inches (4.6MOA) and a final heated barrel flyer raising the group to 3.2 inches (6.4MOA).

I tried again with the 188 milsurp and got 4 into 2.7 inches (5.4MOA) and a final flyer to raise the group to 3.6 inches (a miserable 7.2 MOA).




JUDGE'S CONCLUSION: The winner is the m27rv, based on accuracy and a much better trigger, smooth as glass, beautifully made, but if I had to carry the thing for weeks on horseback and could stone the trigger a good bit lighter, I would take the 1907 Carbine hands down.

The 1907 Carbine is faster pointing, has simpler sights and is just plain better feeling in the hands to anyone used to modern sporting rifles or the old Remington Rolling Block or Krag-era carbines. Just plain slick to handle and a pound and a half lighter where it counts.

The 1907 Carbine feels in fast action like an safari Mannlicher Deluxe carbine from the Hemingway years (that's "feels", not "looks")- very quick, very friendly and ready for anything, while the m27rv is heavy, slow, accurate beyond normal cavalry needs and is just plain a solid, reliable and very good rifle, close to its m27 and m28 relatives. It is very much like an M27 or M28, super reliable in all conditions, performs well as it heats up (unlike the 1907) and is probably unbreakable, but lacks that balance and focus that a good field shotgun or CQB rifle needs, something the 1907 carbine has in spades. With good ammo and a better trigger, the 1907 carbine could certainly repeat the first 1.1 inch four shot group until it heated up, good enough for quick cavalry battles if not mounted artillery use.

So, winner : m27rv with "Sportsman of the Year" to the 1907 Carbine.

The Bogatyrs are not so happy and demand a rematch...
 

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S-G:

I'm glad for you, and the collecting community at large, that your 27rv arrived safe. Late, but safe. :thumbsup:

I can also say that your rifle is perhaps the first example that I have seen (online) over the last decade that I would be happy, no rather, thrilled, to own. All of the very few others I recall seeing during this time had one or more condition problems or defects.

Many collectors adopt, as a matter of practicality if nothing else, a willingness to overlook more condition problems as the scarcity of the piece in question increases. No matter how hard I try, I simply cannot resign myself to lessen my standards in such an inverse relationship, no matter how unlikely I will be successful in obtaining a better example. If I can't have an acceptable example, I want none at all.

And once again, your 27rv is the first that I have seen in a long time that would meet or exceed my admittedly unrealistic expectations. Congrats! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Thanks for the kind words. I really was willing to go to the may for that m27rv as it was they best example I ever had a chance at.

ll try to post the targets again. They strangely showed up on one of my computers but not the other. Whatsup?
 

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Sounds like both rifles were designed for the right purpose. Russian cavalry would have to cover longer distances and in 1907 could conceivably have been involved in a mounted charge. Finnish cavalry using the 27RV would have been expected to fight more like Dragoons. Ride to the battle and then fight like light infantry. I'd say both rifles are just about right for the units that used them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
The 1907 carbine is in a 91/59 stock for now. The original stock was cut down to a "sporter" by Bubba and until I can find or make a good replica, a 91/59 is the closest I can come. These were made from cut down 91/30 or dragoon stocks and fit perfectly on the 1907. They are about an inch or so shorter than the real stocks on the forehand and the 91/59 handguard doesn't wrap around the rear sight like a real 1907 carbine handguard, but it fits and shoots like the original stock.

I will probably eventually find some stock maker to make a replica forehand to put back on the original cut-down stock, and make a replica handguard from a Finn M39 handguard which can be shaped to match an original that fit over the rear sight.

Question SG. I can't tell from the pictures, but are you shooting the 1907 Carbine in a M44 stock?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
I totally agree.
One was better on horseback, one better for dismounted use at longer range.
When I was in Russia recently I watched a lot of old pre-WWII black and white early Russian movies on late night TV, supposedly showing prewar Red Army cavalry and Red cavalry in the Revolution, all showing carbines actually fired repeatedly on horseback at full gallop. Cowboy-style shooting at high speed on horseback was obviously really expected of the Russian cavalry, so the lighter, shorter rifle with a limited rear sight was perfect for the job.
The Finn carbine had longer range capabilities and was substantially more accurate at longer range, but no one could do any 300 yard plus riflery from horseback. It would still work on horseback, but was heavier and slower to shoot like a skeet gun, the way a horseman in CQB would need to do.
For short range shooting from a horse, the light, fast 1907 is superior, but it would be worse for dismounted accuracy at ranges beyond about 250 yards.


QUOTE=Doby;2984083]Sounds like both rifles were designed for the right purpose. Russian cavalry would have to cover longer distances and in 1907 could conceivably have been involved in a mounted charge. Finnish cavalry using the 27RV would have been expected to fight more like Dragoons. Ride to the battle and then fight like light infantry. I'd say both rifles are just about right for the units that used them.[/QUOTE]
 

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I totally agree with Richard in NY. I refuse to overpay IMO for a gun in poor condition no matter how collectible it is. When it comes to collecting condition is everything. The price should reflect the condition of the item. In this case this m27rv is well worth the bucks, it is one of the best I have seen. I am very envious of the owner and I am proud for him. Enjoy!
 

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Nice write up!

And nice to see the old war horse in battle again!

As you know, Finnish cavalry fought on foot, so the RV was like you said a dragoon rifle. Maybe bit awkward but nicer to gallop with than with m/91 or m/27. I have understood that the m/07 was not for cavalry/dragoon use at all but only for specialists like sappers, gun crews and MG crews. One might say it was a "just in case-for self defence"-type rifle. During the Russian Civil War it was used by cavalry too no doubt about that.



Here's a pic with m/07s in Finnish use from the brutal and gloomy days of the Finnish Civil War. Helsinki Civil Guard Bicycle platoon.

 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Some of the old action films and actual footage of Red Army cavalry from the Revolution and soon after I saw on Russian TV was extraordinary - easily as good shooting from horseback as any cowboy Western with a Winchester and very well trained horses. It was carbines used in the films, but tough to tell what sort in old black and white. The riders, true cavalry fashion, controlled the horses with legs only even at a gallop, but took the rifles down from the shoulder a bit to cycle the bolt -quite impressive. Sabers, too, in fancy demos chopping up melons on posts.

The Soviet movie cavalry was used correctly, not in bugle blowing suicidal charges but in rapid pursuit of fleeing troops and partisans in both towns and open country -still exciting in black and white.

One of the earliest films showed early Uhlan-style lancers, again with carbines on their backs, apparently fighting for the Bolsheviks against the Whites. I'll have to start searching for pictures!
Nice write up!

And nice to see the old war horse in battle again!

As you know, Finnish cavalry fought on foot, so the RV was like you said a dragoon rifle. Maybe bit awkward but nicer to gallop with than with m/91 or m/27. I have understood that the m/07 was not for cavalry/dragoon use at all but only for specialists like sappers, gun crews and MG crews. One might say it was a "just in case-for self defence"-type rifle. During the Russian Civil War it was used by cavalry too no doubt about that.



Here's a pic with m/07s in Finnish use from the brutal and gloomy days of the Finnish Civil War. Helsinki Civil Guard Bicycle platoon.

View attachment 780043
 

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Good stuff !
Especially your 'impressions'. Tells me much more than pictures. (Of which there are precious few. Hint, hint.)

I'll suggest that the '07 is not shimmed properly in it's donor stock, with poor accuracy when heated being an issue.
But then accuracy isn't high on the list of traits a rifle like that needs.
 

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Good stuff !
Especially your 'impressions'. Tells me much more than pictures. (Of which there are precious few. Hint, hint.)

I'll suggest that the '07 is not shimmed properly in it's donor stock, with poor accuracy when heated being an issue.
But then accuracy isn't high on the list of traits a rifle like that needs.
I would bet that thinner and lighter barrel was showing that rapid decline in accuracy. I have a 91/59 I use for hunting in a dreaded ABS stock, it exhibits decline in accuracy and sticks quite a bit out of the stock, which is of course sporter length. I find at times the earlier designed Finn-cubs with their cut down barrels actually show less variance in accuracy when heat is put in their barrels. That thinner barrel just won't hold POA when heat is added even in a 91/59 version. I have quite a few 91/59's in there original stocks which even though they have great triggers are prone to heat accuracy loss. That shorter thin barrel has its strong points when it is close to the target. Lighter and easier to handle but prone to a some inaccuracy when heat and distance are added in. Bill
 
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