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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
well i seen this on another gun forum and figured id try it out here well with all the mismatched gew 88s out there mabe we can help each other out by trading for the part # that we need so, here are 3 rifles that need parts, all need bolts #ed to them.
CE WG STEYR 1894 # 4501e needs both bands.

LOEWE BERLIN 1891 #7027 needs both bands and the triggerguard.
CE WG STEYR 1894 # 8775 needs triggerguard and rear band.
heres what i have to trade
rear barrel bands with unit marks
#90 3GGRE3.215 #41 #54 2GGRR2.193
,faint #93 3GGRE1.136 #19 GP3.80 #14 EB4.3
#54 2GGRR2.193 #113GGRE3.223 #76 RE6.36
pitted #5 unnumbered #53 #15 #16

Front bands
#23 60R5.5 #15 4RG5.23 #51 #37 #24
Ker.1.103 #3 or 8 #19 #54 #16

Triggerguards #1160 #9372 #6833 #667 #968 #3012 #3673 #8848 #3604 #315 #9031 s # 9740

I also have a spandau 1890 #5816 marked gew 88 on the side has had barrel removed but has matching bands shroud and trigger.
wanted an AMBERG,EURFURT, or DANZIG or other different manufactured one.
 

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Forgery and later Fraud

Such a topic makes me pretty unhappy, but it's this forum's moderators' decision inhowfar they wish to support fraud and forgery. The topic itself it a sure bone of contention. Since I am not your censor, only your critic, here is the repost of an earlier thread with the same subject and same problem:

* * *

The Great Billdildoe
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 02:14:14 AM
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Guys ; what say we pool all of our mismatch gew88's - and by mismatch I mean from total bitser to maybe one screw.Out there among us there is the particular numbered part we seek to restore our old war horses.
A good example - I got a fairly rough but all major part matching 1890 Lowe today , missing only the rod.Well the only other 88 at the show walked in the door and I got it for $135 , got the rod off of it and damn if the front screw on it was not the exact match for the Lowe 88 I just got , and the rear screw was a match for another 88 I had back home !!. Now if we pulled our data ...just think what we could do for our lovely 88's !! .
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Edited by - The Great Billdildoe on 07/13/2005 10:49:50 PM



j
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 8:16:48 PM
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Lets also include a listing for Kropatschek bolts!!



gew88guy
France
6193 Posts
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 10:19:58 PM
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Bill, sounds good ! Let's make it a sticky !........how 'zactly does one post a sticky tho ?



The Great Billdildoe
Posted - 04/18/2004 : 11:13:03 PM
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It takes a moderator to make it a sticky I believe. Anyhow I guess I'll launch first with gew88 needs particulars with an eye towards swapping , but will buy if owner only wants to sell parts.

Gew88 parts needs ;
Bolt heads needed : 01 , 33 , 43 ,
Bolt heads on hand : 02 , 90 , one with no serial.
Rear sight leafs needed : 33 ; 53 , 91
Rear leafs on hand : 13 , 16 , 93
Rear flip leafs needed ; 01 , 33 , 53 , 91
Rear flip leafs on hand ; 13 , 92 , 98 , 1688 - an odd 4 digit serial.
Rear sight slides needed ; 33 , 53 , 91
Rear sight slides on hand ; 16 , 62 , 72
Front bands needed , 33 , 91
Front Bands on hand ; 06 , 39
Rear action screws needed ; 01 , 33 , 53 , 93 , 91 ,have # 03 , 52 ,67
Front action screws needed , 01 , 91 = have # 63
Cockpeice nut needed ; # 33 , have # 99
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Edited by - The Great Billdildoe on 10/15/2005 7:19:41 PM



madboy357
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 1:22:39 PM
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Need: bolt head,both bands, front sight blade, rear sight leaf-slider-button, all number 12

*6-9-04 Just updating my post---sent some of the extra parts to ebay.*

Have to trade:

mag 88/05 scrubbed
bolt heads 91,57(both German with Turk marks)
front bands 66(2.L.Bro.4.153),32(126.R.10.8),79(15.R.2.135)
rear band 58, 34(62.R.6.5.)<slightly struck
cocking pieces 20
firing pin nuts 07
safetys one proofed/unnumbered
rear sight leaf 22
slider/button 16
front sight blades 71
front action screws 35,69
rear action screws 68,69
88/05 mag/feed parts
bolt stop w/pin,spring
'90 Loewe 88/05 stripped action
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Edited by - madboy357 on 06/09/2004 12:28:44 PM



The Great Billdildoe
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 6:55:13 PM
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Ken ; I could use the slide # 53 , and bolt head # 91.What's a firing pin nut ?.I traded a bolt head # 29 to a fellow a couple months ago via the boards here , forgot whom it was.



gew88guy
Posted - 04/24/2004 : 11:33:21 AM
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Here's an exploded view of the 88 from Gunparts just in case any other folks want to chime in with their needs.

Bill and Ken, the diagram does show a firing pin nut .

http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=1780zCOMMISSION 88



madboy357
Posted - 05/01/2004 : 11:33:11 AM
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Glad its worked out Dwayne. I recieved the 29 screw as well, and everything is good on my end.

I've ammended my posts above--I traded off the rifle I had that needed parts numbered 27---perhaps the new owner will chime in with his wants. Still looking for all the parts listed for serial number 12---fingers are crossed........Thanks everybody! Ken



Grabenkater
Posted - 05/20/2004 : 08:45:07 AM
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This is what is mismatched on my new toy.

Front Band # 68
marked 172. R2 62

Middle Band # 53

Bolt Body # 6737

Cocking Piece # 07

Floorplate/Mag # 6053

Basically I am needing a cleaning rod, safety, firing pin, and bolt head. I would prefer to get a 2nd pattern bolthead.



Tom in Pittsburgh
Posted - 06/20/2004 : 1:14:36 PM
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I need front and rear action screws and a front band numbered "55"

I have to trade a front band number "10" (regimentally marked 32.R.5.209. -- with the "R" being in script)

Also have to trade rear screw 71 and front screw 46

Thanks.

http://home.att.net/~vintage-gunlore/Frames.htm



USDF
Posted - 06/22/2004 : 11:30:54 AM
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Have triggerguard assembly #3280 (Gew 88)



böfei
Posted - 08/14/2004 : 7:00:35 PM
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I will remember to note, that if I see any all-matching 88s for sale from you guys to pass ;)



böfei
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 12:29:35 AM
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I see I struck a chord, must be some deeper inner guilt crying out for redemption ;)

laugh



graf
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 12:46:53 PM
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I bought a 1916 Spandau Gewehr98 from Bill 3 years ago and he made note to mention it was not "original" matching... I asked for the details of what that meant & he told me the story & gave me a list of what wasn't original to the rifle.

I see where "eventually" these details may be left out & it becomes an "original matching" Gewehr98, however Bill is not dishonest as your implying.

Regarding the switching of parts, for matching to the rifle... most of the time these switched parts are not very hard to tell apart from original parts- one has to get the right font, wear, finish, etc... which is no easy task.

Originally posted by böfei
I will remember to note, that if I see any all-matching 88s for sale from you guys to pass ;)
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Editor Military Rifle Journal - Eventual website:
http://militaryriflejournal.com/
http://gewehr98.com/



mag
Posted - 08/15/2004 : 5:05:33 PM
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On GEW-88 rifles the last two numbers repeat every 100 rifles, so the "restored" part is not even close to being the original. The whole idea of a matching number gun is that it is in the same condition with the same parts as it was made. When you put a new part with the same last two numbers on it there is about a 50,000 to 1 chance it still is not the right part. So it is still a mismatched gun, just the last two numbers look the same. To me it is the same as getting out your number stamp and restamping, it is still not the right part. I DID get stuck with a "restored" rifle from here sold as all original and matching. The "restoring" was so bad it had the wrong rear sight on it as the "restorer" did not know the true meaning of one of the "S" stamps on the rifle and thought the correct sight was wrong, so replaced it with a "correct" sight. mag



The Great Billdildoe
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 01:03:34 AM
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Buffy ; the only chord you have struck is your own narrow mindedness - that always gets me going.
I have for example a time or two had fellas want to trade for every little bolt part - obviously they intended to renumber a bolt body and use the original parts around it to support it.They got no parts from me in those instances.
As Mag points out finding correct font,wear and finish makes or breaks a good restoration. A good example is clenaing rods for the gew98. A good many rods when found have the wrong number fonts of the desired two digit serial desired quite often , so one must keep looking. Those posts seeking mathcing bolts - needles in haystacks...but are they dishonest in your book as well ?. Have you ever bought a group of like rifles and found that they had had their parts mixed up between them and by simply swapping those parts around to their ORIGINAL parent rifle would set things straight.I have doen it with Mosins, 98k's and gewehrs...is that dishonest or simply putting right some bubba's dislexia ?.
But in any event I am wasting time on you, no problem as opinions are welcome , and flames not.



böfei
Posted - 08/17/2004 : 01:45:31 AM
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LMAO
It tickles me that these mere little sentences bothered you guys that much.
Dont get so bent outa shape..;)



fireman
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 07:27:15 AM
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Hey bofei, I think it's really great when a new guy comes in here and starts insulting people and implying they're dishonest. We like that, really gets our respect. Now we eagerly await more pearls of wisdom from such a great and mightly collector.



JPS
Moderator - WWI Arms & Militaria Collector
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 11:16:46 PM
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Yo Gents,

I think everyone has had enough opportunity to state their case as well as their opinion. Let's please leave it at that and try on both sides of the issue to try and keep this discussion from turning into a series of flames. Please keep it on an intellectual plain.

Thank you one and all.
Warmest regards,
JPS



The Great Billdildoe
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 9:13:33 PM
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Ferg ; that's cool on the rear band...that 88 I have is not in the greatest shape so the band will likley be rather a good match for it. On reserve ersatz formations you won't always get a 'full' company or regimental.
Another trick on stuck screws while soaking in kroil or not is to put rifl on it's back and using a soldering gun/iron placed and propped on the action screws.Let it sit in place for a good while and soak up some heat. The heat will cause some expansion and hopefully crush some rust in the threads , combined with the kroil and an impact driver will likely yield results. The soldering gun/iron trick has worked for me on a couple occasions when nothing else had promise.
So lets swap bands or something !!.



Joe Turner
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 12:19:09 PM
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Wow! I am impressed with the breadth of some collector's knowledge on the Gew 88. I have two coming to me and when they arive I will share any info on them I have via this thread or forum or PM or regular email. I am a novice with Gew 88s but am also a shooter who likes to keep his collection working. I am involved in a project to do some comparative study of WW1 ear rifles and the Gew 88 is part of that mix. BTW, Springfield Sporters is back in business and has a good selection of Gew 88 parts. I have ordered from them for parts for my Berthiers and they have been very reliable shippers and the parts have been very good! Looking for load info after I find out what the actual bore diameters of my Gew 88s are. Thanks folks! Joe Turner



runner
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 8:49:13 PM
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Parts I have to trade.
Front bands: 41, Rear Bands: 74
Front action screw: 39, 96
Rear action screw: 04, 41

Also have complete trigger guards: 4359, 5515, 5139a

Parts I need
Front band 66
Rear banad 66
Front action screw 66
Rear action screw 66, 88
complete trigger guard: 4966
complete bolt: 4966, would also be interested in any bolt parts 66 or any complete bolt, including turked, to but a shooter together.

thanks, runner
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Such a topic makes me pretty unhappy, but it's this forum's moderators' decision inhowfar they wish to support fraud and forgery. The topic itself it a sure bone of contention. Since I am not your censor, only your critic, here is the repost of an earlier thread with the same subject and same problem:

what do you mean fraud and forgery we are doing nothing wrong what is the problem?????
 

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Force-matching a historical firearms

we are doing nothing wrong what is the problem?
Yes you are.

Which is your right, entirely. It's your gun. You can rebuild it however you like. You can sand the stock with a power sander, or you can paint it green with golden stars.
Equally though, it's the right of other collectors to criticize it. :)

Compare, by the way, the stance on this same issue in the Swedish Military Firearms Forum.

Carcano
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
i am in no way affecting its historical value. not sporterizing it or destroying it i am restoring ecuadorian imports that come in the country a mess and some were matching but for the most part were un matching so im trying to make it match better i dont get what your problem is there is nothing wrong with what me and many other collectors are doing with our salvaged barreled actions from OWS or CFS. SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????????
 

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i am in no way affecting its historical value (...) so i'm trying to make it match better (...)
In a way you affect it.
You start with a weapon of some historical value (less, admittedly, than if it were in original unchanged pristine condition), and then you alter the gun, possibly making it a nice-looking decoration piece, but ending up with a gun of zero historical value.

SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????????
I may not like that, but I have no problem with it either.
YOU are the man with a problem.

Carcano
 

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In a way you affect it.
You start with a weapon of some historical value
As far as I'm concerned, the OWS & CFS barrelled recievers were nothing but a pile of junk until people like bobby0000, myself & many others like us took joy out of salvaging these great rifles which we recieved as a dirty, rusty, crusty & crude piece of metal on half of a rotted, wormfood stock ,& rebuilt/restored them to functioning, operational, working firearms by locating & purchasing the missing parts.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with locating & buying a part that has the same serial number as my reciever.. If I need the part to complete my project, then I need it regardless of what the number on it is, but I sure would like it to be the same as the numbers on the reciever.
 

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Non sequitur.
And don't sanctify yourself too much.

The observation was primarily about the widespread condemnation of force-matching existing guns - which is the aim of the thread-starter -, and not about re-building an entirely new gun from various parts. While latter pastime can be great fun too, but has nothing to do with "salvaging". It's a licit hobby as many others.

Carcano
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks 69khz we are definitly on the same page, by the way how did that stock you got from me with the busted but turn out? Carcano you obviously dont know what your talking about and never purcased one of the barreled actions from ows or cfs so if you have to ask why we rebuild our gew 88s you will never understand!!!!!!
 

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...You start with a weapon of some historical value .... ending up with a gun of zero historical value.
When this "history" of the gun is written by Pedro Gonzales from Amazonia by misplacing the original parts and replacing them with whatever he could find I personally don't mind altering it. At least it is my understanding that this is what the other two gentlemen mean; not ruining a collectible peace with obvious (or perceived) history or interesting provenance.
 

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I only see a problem if a "restored" rifle is sold as all MATCHING and CORRECT. In my mind neither is wrong; both want to preserve the rifle. The problem is when folks misrepresent them and try to extract a premium. They do this on the Japanese boards as well and it has been successful.

I am more suspicious of an all matching rifle than a correct one.

To each his own.
 

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The difference between rebuilding and forgery

Some people talk of very different things, and the wrongdoers especially use this device to obfuscate things.

Nick refers to rebuilding new rifles from e.g. an Ecuadorian junker, usin many different parts and a lot of loving work in this course. This may be a lot of fun, will certainly be an educational experience (one learns a lot in such a project), and it sure beats loitering in the streets and waiting for trouble :).

But such an endeavour is very, very different from the condemnable mischief that the original poster has in mind.

As to Ecuadorian Gewehre 88 (or rather, their remnants and left-overs), I shall append a few pictures at the end of this posting. The new program does not allow us to insert thumbnails *into* the text, alas. Then, I'll also repost some text which I find noteworthy.

* * *

fergus
Posted - 02/12/2005 : 4:35:15 PM
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I sorted through the pile of Gew 88 junkers from Ecuador and picked out about nine for salvage. These are all pretty rough and without bolts but at 2 for $30 I figured what the heck. They're smothered with dried cosmo and the bores are packed with crud. It'll take some time to see what I have here.


Download Attachment:
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Download Attachment:
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From left to right:

Spandau 1889/s
Steyr 1894
Unknown (probably a Steyr)
Steyr 1890/s
Loewe Berlin 1890/s
Spandau 1894/s
Erfurt 1893/s
Loewe Berlin 1891/s
Spandau 95/z/s



fergus
Posted - 02/12/2005 : 4:57:46 PM
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Here are a couple of close-up views of the receiver rings:


Download Attachment:
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The Spandau 89 has the early G.Mod.88 marking on the siderail.


Download Attachment:
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1816flintlock
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 10:26:10 PM
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Might as well post an update on the 71/84's from Ecuador. Between the one I bought last fall and the 3 from last weekend, it looks like I'm on the way to building a 71/84. Only one of the 3 barrels from last weekends haul turned out to be worth much. The best one has some pitting along and under the woodline but nothing too extensive or deep to give me cause for concern. The bore looks new except for a patch of pitting near the muzzle, I doubt it is enough to harm the accuracy of the rifle to any great degree. My poor Yugo Capture K98 looks far worse and still shoots fine.
The 71/84 I grabbed last fall had a near new bore except for that big BULGE just in front of the rear barrel band!!! Somebody sure got surprised firing that final round. At least the internal parts from that one survived the years of neglect much better than on any of the other rifles. I installed the trigger/magazine cutoff parts from that rifle on the good barreled action the other day.
I went ahead and also used the rear sight assembly from the bulged barreled rifle to replace the missing rear sight on the one being restored. Not that it matters much but majority of the internal parts as well as the rear sight assembly and front sight blade will all have matching part numbers. It appears that Navy Arms had removed the rear sights from a number of the 71/84's to rebuild other rifles. The gun is already looking better with both sights installed
The next order of business is to try and call Springfield Sporters to see about getting a bolt, front barrel band, front barrel band key, and magazine endcap/stacking rod assembly. That should cover me as far as parts go. Numrich looks to be sold out of those parts. Thankfully I got a couple of magazine spring followers and a workable magazine tube out of the lot. A couple less items to try and hunt down. Dies, brass, old tire and long string are for another day.
I suppose that if I took the hours going into this project and exchanged them for working more at my job after school I could just buy a working 71/84. Somehow though, this is a far more fun way to spend my time than work and it is satisfying trying to bring one of these clunkers back to life.

Stephen
 
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