[RottenII]

Hi Everyone,
Is there any kind of website or even an actual gov agency where someone could look up or request information on family members that served in the German armed forces in WWII?
A woman I work with brought in a family photo album the other day as she is working on her family tree. She has a photo of her father in his SS uniform. He was from Estonia and forced to fight for the german army. He survived the war with the loss of a lower leg and ended up marrying a German (my coworkers mother) at which time they moved to the United States. Her father died when she was only nine years old and her mother refuses to speak of the war as she lost two of her five brothers in the fighting. At this point she was wondering where else she could turn for information on her father and uncles. Thanks in advance.

 

[Clyde]

Hi Everyone,
Is there any kind of website or even an actual gov agency where someone could look up or request information on family members that served in the German armed forces in WWII?
A woman I work with brought in a family photo album the other day as she is working on her family tree. She has a photo of her father in his SS uniform. He was from Estonia and forced to fight for the german army. He survived the war with the loss of a lower leg and ended up marrying a German (my coworkers mother) at which time they moved to the United States. Her father died when she was only nine years old and her mother refuses to speak of the war as she lost two of her five brothers in the fighting. At this point she was wondering where else she could turn for information on her father and uncles. Thanks in advance.

The Germans have archives - the contents of which have been used to prosecute (persecute?) various former members of the SS (a criminal organization per post-war declarations by the Allies). If he was in the SS (Allgemeine or Waffen), it is unlikely he was "forced to fight for the German army" - you got into those by being eine Freiwilligen (volunteer). AFAIK, they are not available on line.

 

[J.Stein]

AFAIK, they are not available on line.

I wish my brain worked better because I've read about the "hard copy" SS, SA, etc. archives still available for inspection in Germany. IIRC, they were still not openly available like a library...you had to go through some hoops. Previously you could find Nazi Hunters researching right alongside the descendants of the members.

Be careful Rotten, lots of (very) bad characters out of that era had lots of excuses for where they served and with whom they served. Some valid....some not.

I do not want to besmirch Estonians either, but some Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, etc., could be found right alongside the nastiest "German Nazis" in the death camps or Einsatzgruppen.

I don't think she should keep looking honestly. I doubt she'll find proof that he was forced to serve because the Nazis would not archive a document showing "Herman was abducted today and forced into an SS uniform." She might find something that looks bad, unlikely she'll find anything good in those records. Again, I do not wish to slander her father, I just don't think the effort will likely pay off in a good way.

 

[J.Stein]

Here is one place you might start asking question when researching this gentleman if curiosity gets to you.

A sub-forum dedicated to "foreign" soldiers serving the Axis.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=51

 

[RottenII]

Thanks for everyone's replies. While her primary interest was her father, she also lost two uncles. Which part of the military they served is not known. Her father may have very well volunteered for the german army. She was always told that if it wasn't the german army it would have been the russians so it was pick your poison. Total bunk? Very possible. This was the only info that she was given. If there are archives I can direct her to Id be happy to provide them to her and and let her make that decision.

 

[singleshotman]

RE:"Balts"

These people have a long history.In 1939 the three Baltic States were free, and then Stalin signed a non-aggression pack with Hiitler giving him these country's.He took over these county's as soon as possable after Sept 1, 1939 when WW2 started.In the 10-12 centuries numberous German's settled there after a failed invaision of Russia.These became "Ethnic Germans" living in the Soviet Union after 1939.When the Germans came into these "Soviet Republic's" they found large numbers of people of German anchestry living there.When the German's left in 1944 they left with them, as the only future they had in Stalin's russia was the Firing Squad.Stalin murdered numberous minories during the war and they were on his list of doom.I knew such a man, he worked with my father after the war as a Machinest at NAS Alameda,in Alameda,CA.When the Germans left,his whole family joined the German army, it was the only way to have a chance to stay alive."Ernie" was lucky, when the war ended he was in the Ruhr pocket along with 320,000 others.He didn;t surrendier and melted into the local population.He came to the USA after the war,and as far as i know is retired on a a Us Civil Service pension, like my father.It was very interesting to talk with a man who knew the Soviet Union so well during the cold war,i learned a lot not in history books.

 

[Poot]

I'd agree with the observations already made regarding criminals and sociopaths 'serving' in the foreign SS regiments.

Don't forget that many who served in the foreign Waffen SS did so not out of hatred of the Jews, but out of hatred for the Soviets that had savaged their countries and murdered their families before and immediately after Barbarossa. This was the case throughout the Baltics, and extended into the mid-1950s before the last remnants were rooted out. Foreigners couldn't serve in the Wehrmacht (Germans only), but they could fight for the Waffen SS, which made provisions for foreign recruits/units.

Lauri Torni/Larry Thorne was one such man, and he never lost his hatred for Communism. Additionally, Finland provided numerous Waffen SS recruits, but never persecuted their Jewish population. Think, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend.'
Pat

 

[woodsrunner 38 InMemoriam]

If the father was in the SS, would he have been permitted to even visit the USA much less settle here? The basis of my question:

Just two days ago I got notice that an old friend and former schoolmate had died. His Father had been an SS Colonel but was not allowed to resettle in the USA after the War even though his wife and three children were allowed to and did so. He was not even allowed entry to see his Son, my friend, graduate when we received our undergraduate degree.

 

[Clyde]

I'd agree with the observations already made regarding criminals and sociopaths 'serving' in the foreign SS regiments.

Don't forget that many who served in the foreign Waffen SS did so not out of hatred of the Jews, but out of hatred for the Soviets that had savaged their countries and murdered their families before and immediately after Barbarossa. This was the case throughout the Baltics, and extended into the mid-1950s before the last remnants were rooted out. Foreigners couldn't serve in the Wehrmacht (Germans only), but they could fight for the Waffen SS, which made provisions for foreign recruits/units.

Lauri Torni/Larry Thorne was one such man, and he never lost his hatred for Communism. Additionally, Finland provided numerous Waffen SS recruits, but never persecuted their Jewish population. Think, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend.'
Pat

It should be noted that while a good many sociopaths did wind up in SS uniforms, and at least some - well, many - SS-manner (including Waffen SS) were guilty of atrocities and crimes - a lot were not, just soldiered. The Allied declaration of the organizations (and membership as presumtively criminal unless proved otherwise) as criminal organizations led to a good many injustices.

 

[Clyde]

If the father was in the SS, would he have been permitted to even visit the USA much less settle here? The basis of my question:

Just two days ago I got notice that an old friend and former schoolmate had died. His Father had been an SS Colonel but was not allowed to resettle in the USA after the War even though his wife and three children were allowed to and did so. He was not even allowed entry to see his Son, my friend, graduate when we received our undergraduate degree.

IF he admitted to SS membership - probably not. But a good many SS-manner concealed that status (Ivan Demjanjuk, the autoworker and SS camp guard, identified, incorrectly, probably, as Ivan the Terrible, as a prominent example). It was harder for colonels (actually SS-Standartenführer, the SS equivalent of a colonel/Oberst) to hide membership and the result was - exclusion because they had been members of a criminal organization.

 

[J.Stein]

The Allied declaration of the organizations (and membership as presumtively criminal unless proved otherwise) as criminal organizations led to a good many injustices.

Which led to the formation of HIAG to advocate on the behalf of its members who were former Waffen SS.

 

[RottenII]

My coworker has decided after reading everyone's replies to just leave things as is and not continue looking. Appreciate everyone' help.

 

[Clyde]

Well, sometimes you find out things you'd like to know, sometimes you discover things you'd prefer you never found when you start poking into family history (knew somebody who got heavy into geneology and family history and discovered a direct ancestor who was a murderous thug during the War of Northern Aggression - stayed home dodging the draft and preying on neighbors; left a chiid before he was idetified, caught and killed by being dragged behind a horse - the folks who caught him were not happy about what he'd been up to, and his widow and child had to move a good distance becas=use the neighbors shunned them).

 

[bigbang]

Rotten, if you are still interested you will probably find all the information you need here:
Bundesarchiv Freiburg
Wiesentalstr. 10
D-79115 Freiburg


[email protected]

Let me know whether I should start some inquieries for you
Wolf

 

[woodsrunner 38 InMemoriam]

bigbang,

I would be interested in the website that you posted, but cannot get to it. Any suggestions?

 

[RottenII]

Rotten, if you are still interested you will probably find all the information you need here:
Bundesarchiv Freiburg
Wiesentalstr. 10
D-79115 Freiburg


[email protected]

Let me know whether I should start some inquieries for you
Wolf

Wolf, thank you for the offer. I've forwarded your post to her and if she decides to pursue it I will get in contact.

 

[bigbang]

There is no official webpage of the Militärarchiv at Freiburg. You have to contact them via e-mail or snail-mail.
Wolf

 

[Big commander]

The Germans have archives - the contents of which have been used to prosecute (persecute?) various former members of the SS (a criminal organization per post-war declarations by the Allies). If he was in the SS (Allgemeine or Waffen), it is unlikely he was "forced to fight for the German army" - you got into those by being eine Freiwilligen (volunteer). AFAIK, they are not available on line.

Like Clyde says: "He certainly was not forced! He volunteered, which was, IMHO, no shame at that time ... even the pastors on their pulpit encouraged the young men to join ANY army that was turned against their sworn enemy ... communism!". It was a question of idealism ... right or wrong ... and even a question of having food or not! It was easy to condemn them after the end of WWII ... for those that NEVER lived the reality of that time.
To quote a WWI buddy of my father (this buddy became a Commander in the Waffen SS and got 20 years in prison, on death row, afterwards) ... we wanted to stop the reds ... we were disgusted and felt betrayed by the seeing of all those material the Americans gave them ... I once had to give the order to our artillery to put their shells only 50 meters in front of us to stop the enemy.
Like said, he was a buddy of my dad in WWI, he chose a different way during WWII and I even saw a photo of him in his Waffen SS uniform while investigating my dad's military file. In fact, it's due to the commiseration of the secret service I even could see this picture ... the file of the man himself has a "red sticker" ... no insight at all!

 

[Clyde]

Like Clyde says: "He certainly was not forced! He volunteered, which was, IMHO, no shame at that time ... even the pastors on their pulpit encouraged the young men to join ANY army that was turned against their sworn enemy ... communism!". It was a question of idealism ... right or wrong ... and even a question of having food or not! It was easy to condemn them after the end of WWII ... for those that NEVER lived the reality of that time.
To quote a WWI buddy of my father (this buddy became a Commander in the Waffen SS and got 20 years in prison, on death row, afterwards) ... we wanted to stop the reds ... we were disgusted and felt betrayed by the seeing of all those material the Americans gave them ... I once had to give the order to our artillery to put their shells only 50 meters in front of us to stop the enemy.

Like said, he was a buddy of my dad in WWI, he chose a different way during WWII and I even saw a photo of him in his Waffen SS uniform while investigating my dad's military file. In fact, it's due to the commiseration of the secret service I even could see this picture ... the file of the man himself has a "red sticker" ... no insight at all!

Find a copy of JUDGEMENT AT NUREMBERG (a really well done film, though with a somewhat inaccurate epilog) - or the soundtrack - and listen to Janning (Burt Lancaster character) discuss matters and how he came to be a jurist who was schuldig, and finally admitted it. Fiction - but truth, as best i can tell it after knowiing (a few) Germans who lived that time. Here it is printed. Read it, try to do so trhoughtfully and THINK about what he says:

I wish to testify about the Feldenstein case because it was the most significant trial of the period. It is important not only for the tribunal to understand it, but for the whole German people. But in order to understand it, one must understand the period in which it happened. There was a fever over the land, a fever of disgrace, of indignity, of hunger. We had a democracy, yes, but it was torn by elements within. Above all, there was fear, fear of today, fear of tomorrow, fear of our neighbors, and fear of ourselves. Only when you understand that can you understand what Hitler meant to us, because he said to us: ‘Lift your heads! Be proud to be German! There are devils among us, communists, liberals, Jews, gypsies. Once these devils will be destroyed, your misery will be destroyed.’ It was the old, old story of the sacrificial lamb. What about those of us who knew better, we who knew the words were lies and worse than lies? Why did we sit silent? Why did we take part? Because we loved our country. What difference does it make if a few political extremists lose their rights? What difference does it make if a few racial minorities lose their rights? It is only a passing phase. It is only a stage we are going through. It will be discarded sooner or later. Hitler himself will be discarded sooner or later. ‘The country is in danger.’ We will ‘march out of the shadows!’ We will ‘go forward.’ Forward is the great password. And history tells how well we succeeded, Your Honor. We succeeded beyond our wildest dreams. The very elements of hate and power about Hitler that mesmerized Germany, mesmerized the world! We found ourselves with sudden powerful allies. Things that had been denied to us as a democracy were open to us now. The world said, ‘Go ahead. Take it. Take it! Take Sudetenland! Take the Rhineland! Re-militarize it! Take all of Austria! Take it!’ And then one day, we looked around and found that we were in an even more terrible danger. The ritual begun in this courtroom swept over the land like a raging, roaring disease. What was going to be a ‘passing phase’ had become the way of life. Your Honor, I was content to sit silent during this trial. I was content to tend my roses. I was even content to let counsel try to save my name. Until I realized that in order to save it, he would have to raise the specter again. You have seen him do it. He has done it here in this courtroom. He has suggested that the Third Reich worked for the benefit of people. He has suggested that we sterilized men for the welfare of the country. He has suggested that perhaps the old Jew did sleep with the 16 year-old girl after all. Once more, it is being done for love of country. It is not easy to tell the truth. But if there is to be any salvation for Germany, we who know our guilt must admit it, whatever the pain and humiliation. I had reached my verdict on the Feldenstein case before I ever came into the courtroom. I would have found him guilty, whatever the evidence. It was not a trial at all. It was a sacrificial ritual in which Feldenstein, the Jew, was the helpless victim….I am aware. I am aware! My counsel would have you believe we were not aware of the concentration camps. Not aware? Where were we? Where were we when Hitler began shrieking his hate in Reichstag? Where were we when our neighbors were being dragged out in the middle of the night to Dachau?! Where were we when every village in Germany has a railroad terminal where cattle cars were filled with children being carried out to their extermination! Where were we when they cried out in the night to us. Were we deaf, dumb, blind?…. My counsel says we were not aware of the extermination of the millions. He would give you the excuse we were only aware of the extermination of the hundreds. Does that make us any the less guilty? Maybe we didn’t know the details. But if we didn’t know, it was because we didn’t want to know… I am going to tell them the truth. I am going to tell them the truth if the whole world conspires against it. I am going to tell them the truth about their Ministry of Justice. Werner Lammpe, an old man who cries into his Bible now, an old man who profited by the property expropriation of every man he sent to a concentration camp. Friedrich Hofstetter, the ‘good German’ who knew how to take orders, who sent men before him to be sterilized like so many digits. Emil Hahn, the decayed, corrupt bigot obsessed by the evil within himself.

And Ernst Janning, worse than any of them because he knew what they were, and he went along with them. Ernst Janning – who made his life excrement, because he walked with them

 

[bigbang]

Thank you Clyde. Its the first time I read this statement of Ernst Janning. It was a most impressive movie and a most impressive actor. Richard von Weizäcker, our former president ( and one of the better ones) was a young student of the law and assists to defend his father at the Nürnber trials.
Wolf