Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Neil, this bogus gun has been discussed at length on the Maxim site (http://sports.group.yahoo.com/group/maximmg/) site. I believe you have been on that site, but if not, it is under the Yahoo.groups. IMA has a bad habit of making up stuff, and this is just another fantasy done for sales purposes and has no verifiable provenance at all.

Bob Naess
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
That gun is indeed a compendium of the history of the 20th Century, technically and geographicaly (lol). By the way, it is not fastened to any elevating gear. I would not fire the gun in this configuration.
It is original in the way that there is no other gun like this one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
With all due respect Captain, there is no evidence that the gun itself, or the parts of the gun or the gun with the tripod have any relationship to each other. The tripod is a French made "Automoto" product, manufactured specifically for the MG08 guns, and is now mounted to a 1910 Russian gun for which it is not designed, and does not fit, which has some unit association, but no evidence that the gun and tripod were ever related to each other. Clearly the gun and tripod are not useful militarily as they don't fit. Where is the proof that the gun and tripod were together in military circumstances? The gun appears to be a composit of early 1910 componenets, but there is no evidence that this gun is the actual gun described! The parts could easiluy be assembled from unrelated parts by IMA. There is no way to account for the history claimed for this set up. The 1910 components are easily assembled to the waterjacket. The waterjacket is fluted, and there is NO evidence historically to suggest that any army, German, Finnish or any other used fluted jackets with the added mounting hardware for an MG08. All the evidence points to use of smooth jacket early 1910s converted to use with such tripods. The 1910 on the French tripod doesn't make sense, as it does not function correctly, and the assembly of a dummy receiver to the fluted jacket raises far more questions than it amswers. I'm sorry to say this, but after years of dealing with IMA and watching their offering of repro parts advertised without mentioning that the parts are repro, doesn't inspire confidence. This dummy gun does not meet basic requirements for historic credibility. There are other issues that can be raised about this gun with reference to older imports and IMA adaptation of MG08s to tripods that just dont' fit MG08s. Answer me this: what proof is there than any of these parts and the tripod actually were used together at any time??? None.... In my opinion, and I am open to proof otherwise, the whole set up is bogus and just put together for sales purposes, as a fabricated hype, with no proof of any historical connection between the assembled gun parts and the gun and tripod. Let's see the proof....
I can build any sort of "historical" 1910 that anyone might want from the kits I have and the tripods that I have....I can write up any sort of "provenance" needed by any buyer for any 1910, including 1905 Russian brass jacketed guns. However, I will have no "proveable" historic background except my "word", and I can make up any historic context desired. I have a lot of Maxims, from many different countries, and I could write up wonderful and imaginative histories for any of these guns if someone wants it, but proving a verifiable history of any Maxim is exceedingly difficult. The IMA gun does not begin to meet any acceptable level of proof of its history.

Bob Naess
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Bob

I'm afraid I gave up on the yahoo group some time ago as it was you and me answering 90% of any quieries and I was getting a better response on my questions on this forum.

If it has now improved I will consider going back.

Regarding the Maxim, if such a gun had existed when Fire Power International originaly imported the guns into the UK, its strange that Dolf or Davin Acon (not sure of spelling) were not made aware of its existance.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,371 Posts
AS far as IMA is concerned, this is not the first or last example of "gilding the lilly"...like the Portuguese Bredas in 7,9mm passed off as "German" ( same for the Portuguese Madsens as well)...and a lot of other Inaccuracies as well...and since IMA was founded and is run by FPI in the UK, one should source the "flimflam" there as well.

Well said, Bob....

regards,
Doc AV
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
467 Posts
Neil,

Sign up to get the forum posts emailed to you. That way you don't have to bother checking it. If there is activity, you will be able to read them in email... if not then you are not bothered.

There was not much for the average guy to reply too. Remember you have more knowledge than most of us. So when you have a question, only a select few might have an answer. I have been reading them with a lot of interest but doubt you want me to reply saying I have no idea however I am interested in learning the answer with you.

Oh and yeah, yet one more disappointment from IMA.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have been waiting for about three weeks now to have my membership approved by the owner.

Does anyone know who is this groups owner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,762 Posts
Well, since it doesn't work why worry about the feedblock? In any case a Vickers is simply the updated maxim.
Yeah, I know the toggle breaks the other way, and the empties shoot out the front of the reciever. BUT one is derived from the other. I can shoot either 8mm, 7.62x54R or .303 in my vickers just by changing a couple of things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
John: could you please explain what issue you are addressing here? Apparently I missed something on the way to your post.....

Bob Naess
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Hello,
I studie since a long time all the machine guns used by german army during WWI, and when i studie the mg of IMA, for me, it's a rebuilt with parts from every where......there is only one think i like, it's the german stamp on the water jacket (Festung Maschingewehr...). After, the IMA mg has the russian sights and when i look to original postcards, it's always change with German MG 08 sights; normal because they change the russian Mle 05 and 1910 mg's in german caliber 7,92....









After, the tripod is of course made by french but for exporter to other countries like turkish....but i saw a lot of germans rebuilt with mounts comming from everywhere.
Some exemples:





and i have a lot of pictures like this one......

Regards
david
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
585 Posts
Wow, David, those last two pictures have to fall under the "bizzare" category! I have never ever seen a St. Entienne MG mounted on a MG08 sled before. Do you have any other pictures of that setup? And what on earth is that mount with the Hotchkiss? I thought Russian Maxim of course at first, but then the middle doesn't look the same... Put together?

Wonderful picture of the Russian maxim with that reddish looking belt, is that in your collection?? Love seeing your posts on the MG42 board, they're always informative.
 

·
Platinum Bullet Member
Joined
·
2,983 Posts
I am fascinated by the feed in the next-to-last photo. It appears to be a belt rather than the typical Hotchkiss feed strip, and is coiled up in a circular can at the feet of the No.2.

Did the Germans convert these guns to be belt-fed?

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
585 Posts
There actually was a "belt" for the Hotchkiss, more articulated little strip sections than a true belt, but it was sold and promoted by Hotchkiss. It predates the war, and was made for some time. I suspect the belt in the picture is one of the hotchkiss "belts". I think they were commonly used in stuff with tight spaces.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Hello,

i have a lot of "bizzard" pictures but it was used on battelfield.....i also have ever seen "bizzard" accessories and i still don't know what they are today.......but one day!

Saint-étienne 1907 on german sledmount


For the picture with the hotchkiss, it's a french machine gun captured in a tank, it's for that you have the special box and belt for used in tank. As they don't have mounts with the machine gun, they fixed it onto a russian tripod (first model)

Now picture of the same...


And a other bizzard think, a french captured saint-étienne with french tripod Omnibus 1915, and germans put wheels of russian tripod...more easy for carrying


best regards
david
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
Hello,

The two Hotchkiss guns displayed with the articulated belt accommodated in a large circular drums are Belgian mod. 1900 in caliber 7,65x53.

These Belgian belts are completely different from the French Hotchkiss articulated belts in caliber 8mm Lebel.

Cheers,

JFL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
As my name was mentioned incorrectly in this post, I thought I should correct that and also pass on some relevant information. When the IMA Finnish Maxims arrived in the UK in the 1990's, I went through the 1100 odd guns as they came out of the containers. The Finnish Maxims where later put into some form of order by product order type, ie. Imperial Smooth and Fluted Jacket, Civil War period, 1920's , 1930's etc. This initial work I carried out became the basis for the revised Russian Chapter for the second edition of Dolf's book, the Devil's Paintbrush, which provides some guidance on the dating and serial number sequences of pre 1930's Maxim's. The mounts that were shipped with the guns were all Sokolov, ranging from very early examples preWW1 to 1930's production. Whilst there were Maxim's with Austrian Military Markings, and there may have been Maxim's with German markings, I do not remember any with trunnion conversions. The Austrian / German marked Maxim's , a handful, were due to the Finns buying / trading Maxims in the 1920's with Poland and also Italy, this was documented in my translation from the three volumes of Markku Palokangas's on smallarms used by the Finnish Army from 1919.

Therefore the Maxim from IMA I do not believe came from Finland, unless it was subsequently 'restored' with trunnions to fit a German pattern Tripod. Should anyone have the serial number, I can confirm that one way or the other, as I have the Finnish shipping records for that shipment.

OK the Tripod, this is as already ID'd as the French Marked M16 pattern tripod that went to Turkey in the 1920's. this is possibly the best part if you have an German MG08 from Firepower / IMA with the wrong tripod. The MG08's that Firepower / IMA imported in the 1990's were excellent, and the majority came with the French Marked Tripods, they may have been French made, or possibly German Tripods provided by the French for the Turkish contract. The MG 08's which were sold to Turkey came from Belgium, who took them in WW1 reparations. Originally they had a small Belgium 'Not Belgium made' proof of the bottom front of the left hand receiver, but the majority of these were cancelled, probably prior to shipment to Turkey, however a few were missed. The remainder of the Maxim 08's without tripod's were fitted to surplus Finnish M09-19 tripods by Firepower / IMA and were similar to the German M16 tripod, however the mounts were cast in bronze to accomodate the trunnions on the MG 08. The original Finnish M09-19 mount to the tripod was round, as of course, they were mounting Russian 1910 Maxims with no trunnion.

Therefore the question is where did this 1910 Maxim originate, well in addition to Firepower / IMA buying the Maxims from Turkey, there were also a few early Naval 08 Maxims from 1913/14, I bought those, the Russia Lewis Guns and some other early Maxims, which I also bought at the time. It is now outside the bounds of reason that the Maxim came from Turkey, but without seeing it, I would not be certain. At that time I never had a discussion regarding a Russian Maxim 1910 converted to MG08 trunnions, the original MG 08 / with Automoto mounts were also complete with the correct mountings to the transverse gradiant arc to the rear of the gun.

In addition I think it is it is hugely expensive for a deac, in the UK, I have sold Imperial guns with mounts for between £1300 / £2000, so $2/3000 US, WW2 unissued deac. Maxim 1910 with their mounts, in the Russian Transpotation crates are now available at £400/450, so that put things into context.

One point to pick up on, the above post on German rear sights is not totally accurate, I have owned a British captured taken from the Germans, complete with the leg extensions to the tripod and original drum sight. This was completely original, matching numbers, and ex Kynoch Collection, so the Germans did use with drums sights. The Germans also coverted the Russian rear sight by replacing the white metal strip maked in Arshins for one marked in Metres.

Hope that helps

Regards

David Acon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Forgot to say, the whole piece about the Russian capturing the 1910 with the Turkish tripod is so fantastic that is is worthy of a Disney Fairy tale, as there was no conflict between the Russians and Turks post 1918, and certainly not in the period of the Automoto tripod's service in the Turkish Army.

In addition, there were no Maxim Model 05/10, only the 1905 or 1910. When Dolf and I got together on Maxim's I had a theory about unidentified smooth jacketed guns being wrongly described in captions as 1905's due to having smooth water jackets, Dolf believed that they were fluted 1910's that had been repaired with replacement smooth jackets, however an example in my collection rather disproved that. When the Maxim's arrived from Finland, and with the aid of the Finnish translated work on Finnish refurbs, we were able to identify, a second type of 1910 with round steel jacket, and bronze front and rear plates or a combination, in addition there were fluted jacket guns with bronze fittings as we see in the IMA ad.

For more read the second edition of the 'Devil's Paintbrush'

Cheers

DavidA
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
I'll point the finger at IMA, who have contributed to confusion about the early models of the Maxims, usually in an effort to hype the sale of a kit. For a long time IMA has written in ads about a 1905/1910 which has brass parts but is a 1910, and not a 1905. The implication for sale is that it is is a very rare hybrid gun. This has created a persistent mistaken belief that the brass parts of the 1910s are parts left over from the production of the pre-1905 brass Maxims, the DWMs, Nordenfelts, and the 1905 Russian Maxims etc and then used to assemble 1910s. I have brass bottom plates, trunnion and front jacket cap that were specifically made for the 1910s, and are different from the same 1905 brass parts. I have restored a 1905 Russian Maxim, and have sufficient parts to restore another one, as well as having several 1892/95 Argentine Maxims, DWM and Nordenfelt. These brass parts show up on both the smooth jacket and fluted examples of the 1910s, but, of course, are not from 1905s. 1905 grip asemblies, feedblocks, etc can be assembled to the 1910 receiver, but there are none around.
There are visible differences between the machine work and fitting of the 1910 Russian smooth jackets to trunnions compared to the Finnish assembly of smooth jackets to trunnions whether they are Russian or Finn.
The extent of reworking of Maxims by the Russians, using any and all parts available from stores and damaged MGs can't be underestmated, which is amply demonstrated by the wide variety of assemblies of 1910s that have been imported into the US. Makes for very entertaining collecting!
Nice to see you post here David!

Bob Naess
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top