[JTV]

Typo: February 1944 not 1945, since Finland sued for peace with the USSR in September 1944. Arms deliveries from Germany would have had to come before then, likely May June 1944 not "in late 1944."

The last ship to arrive from Germany to Finland was either S/S Gottfried which arrived 3rd of September 1944 or S/S Otto H. which arrived 6th of September 1944. While S/S Gottfried's cargo is listed as the last one (as shipment number 80) in reports, the shipping manifesto of S/S Otto H. is also in archives - suggesting that it may have succeeded getting to Finland. Germany stopped further deliveries by stopping ships heading from its ports to Finland in 1st of September. Probably the most important of these ships that had already been loaded, but stopped from leaving, was S/S Najaden whose main cargo was 8 PzKw IVJ tanks and 8 Ford trucks. Materials already cleared for delivery to Finland, but not yet loaded on any ship when this happened, included 15 Stüg IIIG assault guns, 2,574 infantry rifles and 15,000 pcs of 155-mm artillery shells for howitzers.

As for where the Germans would have sold SVT's, DP's and DT's - all I can say is that that with 100% certainty they did not get to Finland. Our archives include delivery lists, shipping manifestos, billing documents and reports - and none of these weapons appear in any of them.

The 56,722 rifles that Finland bought cost 30 reichmarks/pcs and they had not yet been paid by the time the co-operation ended.

Jarkko

 

[RyanE]

As for where the Germans would have sold SVT's, DP's and DT's - all I can say is that that with 100% certainty they did not get to Finland. Our archives include delivery lists, shipping manifestos, billing documents and reports - and none of these weapons appear in any of them.

The 56,722 rifles that Finland bought cost 30 reichmarks/pcs and they had not yet been paid by the time the co-operation ended.

Jarkko

I doubt the Germans imagined the sale of 1300 MGs. The DT was the standard (more or less) in Finnish vehicles, correct? No one else used the DT, so until a better explanation presents itself, Finland is the only destination that makes any sense.

 

[JTV]

I doubt the Germans imagined the sale of 1300 MGs. The DT was the standard (more or less) in Finnish vehicles, correct? No one else used the DT, so until a better explanation presents itself, Finland is the only destination that makes any sense.

So one German report leaving room for the idea that these might have been delivered to Finland is more trustworthy than a half-a-dozen Finnish reports which say that none were ever suggested, offered, delivered or inspected?

Did the Germans include all east-front unit created from local volunteers and POWs like RONA and numerous police battalions as their own troops in that document? Did any of their eastern front allies issue also 7.62 x 54R caliber weapons in addition of their own standard caliber ones? What about for example Slovenians and Croats in the Balkans?

During World War 2 DT became de facto the standard issue machinegun type used in Finnish armoured vehicles, in addition it was used in Finnish fortifications and also in light machinegun role. It was routinely issued with equipment allowing it to be used also as light machinegun for infantry and it excelled in that role - highly reliable, relatively light, handy and with 60-round magazines. It seems quite likely that any of their eastern front allies should have been happy to get those machineguns as long as also ammunition was available.

Jarkko

 

[daveccarlson]

Kiitos/ Thank you very, very much! Very fascinating discussion. Thank you Ryan for getting "the ball rolling" on this thread.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Chris]

Finland wasn't Germany's only ally in late 44, nor were they the only to use Russian weapons. The Hungarians also used captured weapons at times during the war, but not as standard issue. By early 45 Budapest had fallen, but the RHA was still fighting. Budapest was the center of arms manufacture. Was it possible that those automatic weapons went to the RHA? What about the Slovaks?

 

[JTV]

Finland wasn't Germany's only ally in late 44, nor were they the only to use Russian weapons.

To be exact Finland wasn't an ally, but co-belliggerent - there was no official allience in between (*) the two and Finland took part in military actions only against Soviet Union, not other Allied nations.

(*) The official allience would have been Tripartite Pact, which Finland refused to sign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact

Jarkko

 

[Poot]

Although a historically minor point, this highlights the fact that the shipment in question of 91/30s that were subsequently 'SA' marked never saw active service with Finland in WWII. Some had speculated that these arrived in time to be sorted, processed, rebuilt and redeployed in Finnish service against the USSR in 1944. It's probably more realistic to assume the first three steps listed above, followed by placement in inventory until importation to the US decades later.
Pat