[JaDub]

I think I scored at an auction today. Don`t think anyone really knew what it was as it was a lone vintage gun amongst Glocks etc..

It has not been cut, chopped or recalibered. It does not have importation marks. I paid $150........ ????

Any comments of interest are appreciated since I`m a little wet behind the ears on these.

Cheers, JaDub


P.S. is this a correct sling?

 

[Frank]

Well, for $150 that is a good buy. The long rifles are harder to find that the various carbines. Ammunition (8X50R) is going to be tough to find, but a handy reloader can make the cases from Russian 7.62X54R. The sling is a model that was was very available several years ago. Every seller had a different story on what rifle it was originally for. If it works,use it.

Frank

 

[DocAV]

Well, the Serial Number is NOT Normal (A-H serials were FOUR Digits and one letter).

The Sling is an Original M95 type;

The Photo of the Bolt handle and number is that of a French Berthier or Lebel Bolt, NOT Austrian (Mixup in Photos?)

The absence of Acceptance Marks ("W-n Eagle date") combined with the Five Digit Serial may mean this was a NON-AH Contract???

WE need some more detailed Photos of the Receiver and the barrel shank back from the rear sight, esp. the RHS of the receiver.
Also the Buttstock Numbers ?

Nice piece, if it is an 8x50R chamber.

Ammo easily made (a) by sizing and trimming Grafs (Prvi-Partizan) Boxer 8x56R cases or (b) Dismantling, sizing and trimming, and reloading Military 8x56R cartridges or (c) Forming, and trimming 7,62x54R cases and loading up.

Clips to load rifle are the same as 8x56R Clips...available with 8x56R Milsurp ammo, or Loose at Gunshows.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Technical Services.

 

[Nick]

Well, the Serial Number is NOT Normal...

No kidding, that's what caught my attention, too.

 

[TheGreenMan]

No kidding, that's what caught my attention, too.

You mean like the pic below?
The receiver has been renumbered but the barrel serial number seems to be original. No date on the barrel. Only a S mark. Looks to be from a cut down long rifle (rifle rear site and banded front site).
JaDub, what are the proof marks on the right side of the receiver and barrel?

 

[JaDub]

This is what I enjoy the most. It`s always interesting to find something unusual or something that is stumping. And about that Berthier bolt....... WHOOPS ! Nice call, can`t fool you for a minute. My bad!!
I can`t find anymore stampings or markings other than these last photos.
What do you mean by A-H and non A-H contract ?
Further: muzzle I.D. 8.4mm plus or minus, sorry I can`t be more accurate
: O.A. length 50"

There are no other numbers or stampings on the barrel shank or reciever.

JaDub

 

[Nick]

Very nice old style bolt and very nice Bulgarian property marks, the lions. The number is unusual as it is 5-digit, not the usual 4 digits + suffix.

 

[TheGreenMan]

I knew there would be Bulgarian lions on the right side. Mine has the same on the receiver and barrel.
Very cool.

 

[Lovesz]

JaDub,
If I may be presumptive and answer for Doc AV, I think he means A-H to mean Austria-Hungary. Is the left side of your rifle's receiver stamped STEYR (Date such as 1903)? If so, it was a rifle made by Steyr on contract for the Bulgarians. I don't think it is a contract rifle because the Steyr is stamped on the top of your receiver.
Your rifle has a Budapest or Hungarian bolt body. You can tell by the R stamp. Parts stamped with a K are Steyr or Austrian. If your rifle is 50 inches OA, it is a long rifle because Stutzens and cut down long rifles were about 39 inches.
$150 for a M95 long rifle in 8x50mmR with a sling, bayonet and scabbard is a very good buy. The bayonet and scabbard are worth $30-40 alone.
As Nick said, your rifle was acquired by Bulgaria as evident by the Bulgarian Lion. Yours is the first five digit serial number that I have seen.
Enjoy your acquisition.

“Bugler. Sound the charge.” Captain Nathan Brittles

 

[Osage]

I thought the k stamped on the bolt designated something to do with bolt length?

Ok, found the text I was thinking of:

"Due to headspacing the rim of the cartridge, these rifles were not prone to headspace problems like the Mausers were. For correction of the rare headspace problems 3 types of bolt heads were made and marked:
K (Kurz = Rovid = Short),
M (Mittel = Kozepes = Medium),
L (Lang = Hosszu = Long) "

I think there were other parts that were marked k or r based on country of origin.

 

[JaDub]

Great info guys. To answer a couple of your questions....... No markings on the side of reciever so it sounds like it is definately not a contract piece...... it is only top marked. There are no further markings . It is 50". Was the R stamped bolt body supplied to Steyr or was this a repalcement? As to the 5 digit serial number......... any light to be shed there ? Approx going price for this critter? I know, it`s subjective.

Thanks for all the comments......... this is what makes collecting both interesting and rewarding.

Cheers, JaDub

 

[Lovesz]

Osage, (I wrote this before your latest post.)
Thank you for your comment for you initiate some interesting questions. Two things I would like to address.
I. It is generally accepted in M95 circles that parts marked with a K are Steyr-Austrian made and parts marked R are Budapest-Hungarian made. That said, you are correct that bolt heads were sometimes marked with letters to designated bolt lengths. This is from Manowar’s most informative site: Due to headspacing the rim of the cartridge, these rifles were not prone to headspace problems like the Mausers were. For correction of the rare headspace problems 3 types of bolt heads were made and marked:
K (Kurz = Rovid = Short),
M (Mittel = Kozepes = Medium),
L (Lang = Hosszu = Long)
Perhaps this is to which you were referring. I have not seen a bolt so marked and I don’t even know where they marked them. Nick, Greenman, can you help here?
II. After your comment, Osage, I went back and looked at the photo of the bolt in JaDub’s posting. I made my statement that JaDub’s bolt was Hungarian based on this. I was wrong. I should have said that the cocking piece was Hungarian. The bolt as shown is obviously Austrian from the K on the bolt handle. The cocking piece is unlike any that I have seen. All the cocking pieces that I have seen have had the K or R mark on the rear of the cocking piece above the screw. JaDub’s has no mark there. Instead it is on the stud (correct nomenclature?). I have never seen an R mark on the cocking stud as shown in this photo. Actually, the entire cocking piece is unlike any that I have seen. It does not have the two wedges between the thumb piece and the stud that keep the bolt from wobbling. Maybe they are there, but I just don’t see them in the photo.
Nick and Greenman, can you help out here?
JaDub, you have a very interesting rifle. Thank you for sharing.
“Bugler. Sound the charge.” Captain Nathan Brittles

 

[Lovesz]

JaDub,
At Ohio gun shows the asking price for your rifle with bayonet and scabbard would be between $450 and $600.

"Bugler. Sound the charge." Captain Nathan Brittles

 

[JaDub]

To me one of the most enjoyable things about gun collecting is the enjoyment I get out of sharing these works of both art and history with those that appreciate and understand what a time capsule these guns really are. To hear you all comment about the various details really makes my day. It is truely fastinating to tap into the incredible data base you all have become. The old addage of " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing " is truly the tip of the iceberg or the fudge on top of the sundae. Thanks so much for everyone`s input and participation. I`m in Denver, so if ever there look me up.

Feel`n warm and fuzzy, JaDub

P.S. any comments on the numbers stamped into the stock?

 

[GOEX FFF]

<Snip> The cocking piece is unlike any that I have seen. All the cocking pieces that I have seen have had the K or R mark on the rear of the cocking piece above the screw. JaDub’s has no mark there. Instead it is on the stud (correct nomenclature?). I have never seen an R mark on the cocking stud as shown in this photo. Actually, the entire cocking piece is unlike any that I have seen. It does not have the two wedges between the thumb piece and the stud that keep the bolt from wobbling. Maybe they are there, but I just don’t see them in the photo.<Snip>

The cocking piece is an early style. I have about 10 of them with the large rounded bottoms and have come across at least 3 different styles of M.95 cocking pieces.

The common later style with "wings" (or wedge).
The early style with the large rounded bottom as shown in JaDub's pic and the same early style but has notches cut in the lower rounded portion inline with the receiver's upper race-way rails. Of all the early style I've encountered, none of them are marked on the rear-face like later style pieces are, but on the side of the lower stud.

I'll post pics of the 3 kinds I have a bit later.


ETA: Pics

 

[Osage]

Yeah, I probably confused two issues. I can check my bolt but it's a stutzen so I don't know if this applies. I think my bolt is stamped k on all the pieces.

 

[JPS]

Hello Gents,

Nice find and a steal at that price. IMHO this is most likely a post WWI Bulgarian rebuild with primarily Austro-Hungarian part. The absence of contract marking on the receiver (Bulgarian coat-of-arms) and siderail markings (Steyr and date) combined with the ground and renumbered receiver would make indicate an original Bulgarian barrel (no A-H acceptance date) mated with an A-H receiver.

Decent long rifles in 8x50mmR usually go for $250 to $400 depending on condition, the knowledge of the seller and occasionally higher for completely original weapons with matching serial numbers on the barrel, receiver, stock and top handguard.

The sling is not an original Austro-Hungarian pattern. It's post WWI, but not like any of the Bulgarian slings I have ever seen??? The keeper buckle is similar, but the adjustment buckle is unusual as is the extra long tongue beyond the buckle and between the doubled up lower section of the sling???

An interesting find. Opinions on the sling anyone???

Warmest regards,

JPS

 

[Nick]

The sling is a modern reproduction. I have the same sling on one of my mannequins.

 

[TheGreenMan]

combined with the ground and renumbered receiver would make indicate an original Bulgarian barrel (no A-H acceptance date) mated with an A-H receiver.
........
Decent long rifles in 8x50mmR usually go for $250 to $400 depending

Do you think JaDub's receiver was ground? I know mine was but his looks to be original.

I'm with you on the price JPS. You will probably be able to find them for higher money but they probably will not sell at that price. Just like the BRNO marked cut down long rifles on Gunbroker that have been listed north of $600 for more than a year now.

Perhaps this is to which you were referring. I have not seen a bolt so marked and I don’t even know where they marked them.

I think the bolt heads are stamped with the letter on the bottom of the head or on the piece that enters the bolt body. I can't remember off the top of my head, though I am leaning toward the bottom of the head. There are also numbers stamped on the part the enters the bolt body, I don't know what they mean, maybe a proof of some sort.

Was the R stamped bolt body supplied to Steyr or was this a repalcement?

A replacement, or more specifically; in this case it was used when Bulgaria rebuilt or had it re build between the wars.

 

[JPS]

Hello Green Man,

"DUH???".......My apologies. By "ground and renumbered receiver" I was referring ONLY to the location where it has been renumbered, not the entire receiver. However, after looking at the photos again, I mistakenly only scrolled high enough to see your photo, which I mistakenly assumed was just another photo of JaDub's rifle.

Having gone all the way up to the top of the thread, it's obvious that his receiver is untouched, in which case the barreled receiver of his rifle may have come from a wartime Bulgarian order filled from work in progress at Steyr. The top of the barrel is clean which confirms that it was never accepted by the KuK.

It is my understanding that there was some wartime production that was diverted to Bulgaria which were supplied without the typical coat-of-arms on the receiver or siderail date. His rifle clearly is marked with the Bulgarian rampant lion on the right side of the barrel and receiver, minus however the other typical markings, but with an original atypical serial number.

Since Bulgaria was the only other country using the M95 during WWI, other than captured weapons, this is my best guess as to the origins of this rifle.

Regarding price, I would beg to differ in terms of higher priced rifles not selling. Per my description above, show me a completely original infantry rifle with matching serial numbers on the barrel, receiver, stock and top handguard that is still chambered for the 8x50mmR cartridge and I guarantee that I can find a buyer for inside of a long weekend. If the same rifle is from the pre-war Bulgarian contracts with matching numbered bolt and gas escape hole and I could sell nit for $750 or more.

Thank you for catching my mistake in misidentifying the photo of the renumbered receiver.

Warmest regards,

JPS