[Kip30]

After several years of hopes and prayers I finally found a Finnish Marked Type 30, and from Proxibid of all places. Late in October I was browsing through Proxibid auctions when I saw this Type 30 going up for sale. Nobody bid on it so I put in the opening bid and ultimately won.

The rifle is in decent shape for 120 years old. It is matching except for the bolt which matches itself. The bore is still pretty dirty but has prominent rifling. The stock is scratched and dented but still very solid. The Civil Guard number is 85,027 and very crisp. If my research is correct that means it was issued in Savonlinna, about 20 miles from the current Russian border.

If only guns could talk I'm sure this one would have some stories to tell.

 

[Quailridge]

After several years of hopes and prayers I finally found a Finnish Marked Type 30, and from Proxibid of all places. Late in October I was browsing through Proxibid auctions when I saw this Type 30 going up for sale. Nobody bid on it so I put in the opening bid and ultimately won.

The rifle is in decent shape for 120 years old. It is matching except for the bolt which matches itself. The bore is still pretty dirty but has prominent rifling. The stock is scratched and dented but still very solid. The Civil Guard number is 85,027 and very crisp. If my research is correct that means it was issued in Savonlinna, about 20 miles from the current Russian border.

If only guns could talk I'm sure this one would have some stories to tell.

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What is the probable history related to a rifle of this type? Captured in the Russo Japanese war? Bought by Finland during their revolution? Somehow captured during the Winter War? All the world wants to know. Thanks. Jeff

 

[Kip30]

What is the probable history related to a rifle of this type? Captured in the Russo Japanese war? Bought by Finland during their revolution? Somehow captured during the Winter War? All the world wants to know. Thanks. Jeff

I'm no expert on these rifles but I've done a lot of reading here on the forums about them. From what I gather, there are two main ways they could've ended up in Finland.

1) Britain ordered a large amount of Type 30s to use as training rifles during WW1. Britain then sold them to Finland when the Russian Revolution broke out.

2) Russia did purchase Type 30's to use in WW1 but I don't know how many they bought, I've heard varying amounts.

And as for the Russo-Japanese War, I don't believe Russia captured any significant amount of Type 30s.

 

[FIB48]

I'm no expert on these rifles but I've done a lot of reading here on the forums about them. From what I gather, there are two main ways they could've ended up in Finland.

1) Britain ordered a large amount of Type 30s to use as training rifles during WW1. Britain then sold them to Finland when the Russian Revolution broke out.

2) Russia did purchase Type 30's to use in WW1 but I don't know how many they bought, I've heard varying amounts.

And as for the Russo-Japanese War, I don't believe Russia captured any significant amount of Type 30s.

At the end of 1916, following small arms had been delivered to Russia:
Type 30 rifle 331,000
Type 30 Carbine 25,500
Type 38 rifle 200,000
Mexican rifle 20350
Mexican Carbine 15050

 

[Quailridge]

At the end of 1916, following small arms were delivered to Russia:
Type 30 rifle 331,000
Type 30 Carbine 25,500
Type 38 rifle 200,000
Mexican rifle 20350
Mexican Carbine 15050

Wow, I wonder if any Mexican arms have ever surfaced that could be attributed to Russian or Finn service. Jeff

 

[SSG_Lord]

I'm no expert on these rifles but I've done a lot of reading here on the forums about them. From what I gather, there are two main ways they could've ended up in Finland.

1) Britain ordered a large amount of Type 30s to use as training rifles during WW1. Britain then sold them to Finland when the Russian Revolution broke out.

2) Russia did purchase Type 30's to use in WW1 but I don't know how many they bought, I've heard varying amounts.

And as for the Russo-Japanese War, I don't believe Russia captured any significant amount of Type 30s.

Russia purchased around 600,000 Arisaka's of various types from Japan during WW1 and Britain purchased another 150,000. These were used by support troops or in secondary fronts to free up Enfield's and Mosin's for use on the Eastern and Western fronts respectively. Once Enfield production had hit it's stride, Britain gave most of it's Arisaka's to Russia who was still short of modern rifles. Britain never sold Japanese rifles to Finland, Finnish CG marked Type 30's like yours were taken from Russian arsenals or from disarmed Russian troops when Finland declared independence from Russia in 1918. After the Finnish Civil War most Japanese rifles were transferred to the Civil Guard and used by them until enough Mosin's were acquired to rearm them in the mid 1920's

 

[Kip30]

Russia purchased around 600,000 Arisaka's of various types from Japan during WW1 and Britain purchased another 150,000. These were used by support troops or in secondary fronts to free up Enfield's and Mosin's for use on the Eastern and Western fronts respectively. Once Enfield production had hit it's stride, Britain gave most of it's Arisaka's to Russia who was still short of modern rifles. Britain never sold Japanese rifles to Finland, Finnish CG marked Type 30's like yours were taken from Russian arsenals or from disarmed Russian troops when Finland declared independence from Russia in 1918. After the Finnish Civil War most Japanese rifles were transferred to the Civil Guard and used by them until enough Mosin's were acquired to rearm them in the mid 1920's

I was under the impression that Britain sold them. Thank you for clearing things up for me!

 

[Shabadabada]

At the end of 1916, following small arms were delivered to Russia:
Type 30 rifle 331,000
Type 30 Carbine 25,500
Type 38 rifle 200,000
Mexican rifle 20350
Mexican Carbine 15050

Thanks for the numbers !
What about the few Type 35 rifles located in Russia/Finland ? All were captured during Russo-Japanese war ?

L

 

[copper]

The second-line Russian troops in Finland (and the Baltic states, too) were equipped with Arisakas during WW I. They were captured from the armories in the start of Finnish Civil War. In Finnish nomenclature m/97 (hook safety) m/02 (Navy rifle), m/05 Arisakas (knob safety) rifles and carbines. A lot was"transferred" to private hands, many were converted to "Jappi" hunting rifles (one gunsmith reached 16 000 in ihis shop serial numbering).

 

[Jericho]

Im assuming that most of these rifles that went to Russia in 1916 saw hard use on the front line and were captured or destroyed?

 

[Mangrove]

The Civil Guard number is 85,027 and very crisp. If my research is correct that means it was issued in Savonlinna, about 20 miles from the current Russian border.

S 85027 belonged to Kesälahti Civil Guard at Pohjois-Karjala (North Karelia) Civil Guard District. Kesälahti is located some 15 kilometres or 10 miles from the current Finland–Russia border. Kesälahti Civil Guard was moved to Savonlinna Civil Guard District in 1940, years after the rifle was removed from Kesälahti Civil Guard inventory.

Civil Guard used some 6000 Type 30 rifles between circa 1918 and 1928. Most of these were captured directly by Civil Guards from Imperial Russian 42nd Army Corps and Russian Baltic Fleet armouries in January 1918. Some were given to them by the Ministry of Defence after the Finnish Civil War.

 

[Kip30]

S 85207 belonged to Kesälahti Civil Guard at Pohjois-Karjala (North Karelia) Civil Guard District. Kesälahti is located some 15 kilometres or 10 miles from the current Finland–Russia border. Kesälahti Civil Guard was moved to Savonlinna Civil Guard District in 1940, years after the rifle was removed from Kesälahti Civil Guard inventory.

Civil Guard used some 6000 Type 30 rifles between circa 1918 and 1928. Most of these were captured directly by Civil Guards from Imperial Russian 42nd Army Corps and Russian Baltic Fleet armouries in
January 1918. Some were given to them by the Ministry of Defence after the Finnish Civil War.

Thank you for the information, but did you mean to type 85,207? My rifle is 85,027.

 

[Betonfahrer]

Here are some pictures from Palokangas's 3 volume set- Volume 3 is on Foreign Weapons and he covers the Arisaka Models- My friend has a CG marked T-30 that was a rifle converted to a carbine.

 

[sparky236]

Thanks for the numbers !
What about the few Type 35 rifles located in Russia/Finland ? All were captured during Russo-Japanese war ?

L

The Japanese SOLD them to Russia. They became friends before WW1 and were allied. Much like WW2 and today in Ukraine, the Russians ran out of weapons and needed foreign sources. Russians took what they could get - including Mexican Arisakas in 7x57.

 

[sparky236]

Im assuming that most of these rifles that went to Russia in 1916 saw hard use on the front line and were captured or destroyed?

They did see hard use - by 1923, the Finns ordered 500 Arisaka barrels from SIG to replace worn out ones. See two in my recent thread here: Finnish SIG Arisaka (#2) - and it's a carbine

 

[sparky236]

I was under the impression that Britain sold them. Thank you for clearing things up for me!

British marked Arisakas did go to Russia and then were captured by the Finns. I have one that is Civil Guard and Brit marked and have seen a few others:

 

[sparky236]

While I'm at it, I'll post a British marked T38 Mexican carbine found in Finland. Look for that thread next.

 

[Quailridge]

While I'm at it, I'll post a British marked T38 Mexican carbine found in Finland. Look for that thread next.

What a great thread everybody! Jeff