[ThePreacher]

I found a mauser carbine that apears to be a federal ordnance remanufacured carbine.
It is in 9 mm and the stock is in exc condition, anybody have any Idea how much it is worth?

 

[amafrank]

Those guns originally sold for about $1500 and thats about what I've seen them go for. The guns were not remanufactured by Fed ord they were built by fed ord. The receivers were made from scratch and used internals and uppers from Schnellfeuer part sets. The uppers had 16" barrels installed in them as they originally had 5.5" 7.63 mauser barrels. Most of the carbines were made in 7.63 as far as I know. I've got barreled uppers, wood and receivers for 5 or so that I got from Briklee trading, the company that took over the Fed ord assets. The stocks and attaching parts were all made up for Fed ord too. Basically they are not original mauser carbines and the value is much less than what a proper Mauser C96 carbine would be. They are however unique and pretty good shooters in 7.63. The 9mm guns had some trouble with reliable functioning and required 125gr ammo to work. The mags were made up by the chinese for the guns though original Schnellfeuer mags will also work (normally). Fed Ord also made what they called a model 713 that was a pistol with the removeable magazine and no slot for the shoulder stock.

Hope that helps some.

Frank

 

[Radom]

I recall the 'Black Forest Carbines' costing $399 wholesale. I though that was too damn high. Silly me! I consider them a 'novelty piece' and it would be so cool if only I had bought one early on. Not nearly so cool for the prices people want now.

 

[DocAV]

C96 ExChina "Carbines"

We had these here in Australia as well, but they didn't come from "Fed-ord" but direct from China. I doubt Fed-ord actually "manufactured" anything at all on these guns.

My example has a long 7,63 barrell sleeved into the Original Mauser slide (not 16 inch, as this requirement does/did not exist in Australia, only total overall length of 30 inches(Now 75cm) to avoid "pistol" classification. The stock was "fixed" (ie, not a pistolgrip with removable butt, but a screwed-on, fixed butt...a true "Mauser carbine".

And the frame was a carefully welded up SchnellFeuer Receiver. The main trigger frame was a Normal C96 (semi auto) trigger block, with relevant SA parts. Magazine was a "Mauser" marked 10 round removable, obviously old ( re-blued).

I have seen similar ones here (before the 1996 GunCrush) which were built on "Normal" C96 receivers.
BTW, my "carbine " has #050.(Chinese applied) and original Mauser "Banner" markings ( other parts have some (German) ##

It seems that these were acquired by Fed-Ord during the GCA68 Import bans, by the subterfuge of buying them from the Chinese "Police" ( Police guns could be imported under GCA 68, but "Military" Guns could not.). Anybody who knows anything about China can see through this semantic subterfuge ( Both Military and Police are part of the same Government, and their Weapons supply chains are interlinked.) Similar subterfuges were used to import M1935 Chilean Mauser Carabineros Rifles, on the pretext that they were "Police" issue...everyone with a modicum of knowledge of Latin Police structures knows that the "Carabineros" are yes, a "Police Force" but depend from the Defence Ministry, not the Interior Ministry (just like the Carabinieri in Italy).

As to the "manufacture" I would say that all the making work was done in China, and only final assembly was done in Cali.(if at all). Under current US trade laws, that qualifies as "Manufacture"...it qualifies as Deceptive Labelling here in Australia.

I would examine carefully the insides of the main frame, because the rewelding is so well done, it is not discernible from the outside, even under angled light.

regards, Doc AV

PS, Don't use heavy loads on these re-builds, as they tend to hammer the Bolt Stop Yoke.
(My experience with 7,63x25 handloads.) And definitely don't use Tokarev/SMG loads in them. The same would apply for those "up-calibred" to 9mm Para.

 

[amafrank]

Hi Doc,
I understand the skepticism about Fed ord, they never had a terribly good reputation. I do have some more info on the US stuff though. The receivers that they used on the "713" and carbines they built were most definately not rewelded or modified original receivers. I've got a few of them that were never finished and the machine work is obviously freshly done. There are sharp edges and machinemarks all over and nothing fits quite right until you do a bit of linishing and polish. The receivers are engraved with the Fed Ord name and were never marked otherwise. Now they could have easily been made in china and finished here in the states. At the time they were done the import regs were much different. I do know they got the upper, bolt and trigger block parts from a deal they did with an importer in Sacramento California who had a goodly number of SchnellFeuers that were cut in bond in the US. The 713 I bought has a schnell upper and trigger block with the trip sear and spring left out. Since the receiver has no place for the Schnell trigger, selector or trip they are fine in the US. The carbines were the same only the butt was removeable like one of the original versions of Broomies was. There is a button on the butt that unlatches it and allows it to slide off the "T" rail on the receiver. The button is behind the receiver however unlike the original guns which had the release under the receiver just behind the trigger. On them the release pushed right to left if I recall correctly and the fed ord guns have a release that looks like a 28 thompson. The wood is actually decent walnut though it was never finished very well, at least in fitting it to the metal parts externally. The inletting for the butt slide and plate was actually pretty good surprisingly. The handguards were made to fit to a rail that was rivetted to the front of the mag housing. There is a screw that goes through the handguard into the rail much like a thompson. Once the things are fitted, finished and blued they look pretty nice especially if you go the extra mile that Fed ord didn't and finish the wood properly.
Hope that adds a bit to the discussion and I'll try and get some pictures of the parts I've got for viewing purposes.

Later
Frank

 

[ThePreacher]

Thanks for the info guys, unfortunately I snoozed and lost. I had found one for sale in the $650 range but I got busy and somebody beat me to it.

 

[vintovka]

FWIW: The fedord broomhandle catalog shows the 713 frames being made on cnc machines by in El Monte CA. It also shows the barrel extensions being brazed on as well. Still admire the ability of their master die maker for reproducing the mauser marks (and others).

Not sure they ever finished assembling all the brooms they had new frames for before they went under. This may account for some of the unfinished frames.

I, too, regret not buying at least one carbine but you could buy10 to 20 run of the mill brooms for the cost of one carbine. I also think the parts were all from many thousand like new 712s that had the frames cut right here in N. Cal. The uppers and all the internals were carefully removed prior to torching the original frames but i think I remember the mag releases being in short supply.

 

[amafrank]

I can say from personal experience and knowledge that there were many many frames and parts left over after they went bankrupt. I have a few of them myself. The machinework is not too bad in reality. Also the mag catches were made new for the removable mag models so maybe they cut the originals badly. I bought a couple of the Schnell part sets from Armex in Sacramento, who did the cutting if I recall correctly. They were saw cut and you were supplied with the pistol grip and about the rear 1" of receiver. The rest was tossed or scrapped by them. Here are a few pics of the receiver and associated parts.

Frank