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Discussion Starter #1
They have had an abysmally bad reputation since the time I first entered the 'Net (1992), but there are still newbies lured and deceived by them, so...

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DMala
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 4:21:30 PM
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Dear all, see below FYI a complaint that I sent to Shotgun News's mailbox for complaint against advertisers ( [email protected] ). Maybe if you agree you should do the same, not only to prevent unaware collectors from buying a fake, but also to attempt discouraging the make of historical fakes.


Dear Sirs,
as suggested in your "Complaints Against Advertisers" note, I would like to report that Hunters Lodge's advertisement of "German modified Italian carbines 8mm - from the North Africa WWII campaign" is a blatant attempt to sell a fake. No carbines resembling the one advertised ever existed, and they are evidently simply Italian-made 8mm carbines to which an imitation of German stamp was added in recent times. See for reference Dick Hobbs' book "The Carcano", second edition, 1997. The extremely rare German conversions of Carcano rifles and carbines bear, among other differences, completely different stamps, and commend a much higher price than the price tag of $170.

I believe this is a very transparent attempt to lure unaware collectors into buying a carbine which, if in original condition, is rarely valued more than $75.

As one of your subscribers, I would appreciate if you could discontinue supporting such form of larceny, by publishing a misleading advertisement.

Thank you in advance for your attention, and best regards



GjMan
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 9:10:04 PM
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DMala, I share your opinion of Hunter's Lodge; if they're not crooks, they're the closest thing to crooks.

But don't count on SGN to protect your interests. Their "complaints against advertisers" thing is a complete fraud. I complained when WGA sent me an "excellent" condition M39 which was maybe good at best, and then blew me off when I tried to get a full refund. All I got from SGN was doubletalk. I finally got the lady in charge to admit that she couldn't/wouldn't do anything.

Think about it. SGN makes their money from their advertisers, not us schmucks who buy a copy now and then. Whose interests do think SGN is gonna look out for?

Best way to deal with crooked/incompetent SGN advertisers is to publicize their crimes right here. And stop buying SGN like I have.



allanschisel
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 11:50:03 PM
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Shotgun News won't do anything. I complained about Paragon 10 years ago and they didn't do anything about it. The new "complaint" dept. is BS. What you are complaining about is minor compared to any actual dealings you'd have with Hunters Lodge. Even the legit stuff they advertise is over-rated and over-priced. If Shotgun News really did something about bad dealers, Hunters Lodge would have been banned long ago.
Allan Schisel



DMala
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 09:44:27 AM
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I agree that the likelihood that SGN will do anything about this is basically zero, but at least I hope I am annoying them.....



doughboy1953
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 8:00:16 PM
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I tend to agree that the sellers provide the money to such publications as "Shotgun News", "Gun Lists", etc. and so the publications are not likely to do much for you on complaints, but I have had no success with complaints to Better Business Bureaus or US Post Office either. If the company won't remedy the complaint (fortunately, I think most of them will) you are sort of out of luck in my experience.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
arch jones
Posted - 12/02/2003 : 09:52:22 AM
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Hunters Lodge is advertising Nazi marked 8mm Carcano's (EAGLE and SWASTIKA)reported to be issued to Italian troops fighting with Rommeil. These are highly suspect fakes to me does anyone have any info on these guns



formac
Gunboards Premium Member
Posted - 12/03/2003 : 01:32:26 AM
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Would not put it pass them to have got a set of them stamps from their pals in crime Gunparts and made them in to the very rare Rommel rifle - so rare that they're the only ones to have them for sell. Just think a month or two ago the guns may have been at Springfield Sporters [ss] in Pa. unmarked and now well what can one say same as it never was. Too bad that SS is gone and Hunters Lodge is still here.


coasthwy1
Posted - 12/03/2003 : 11:53:45 PM
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An 8 mm Carcano will speak for itself. Add a Nazi stamp, and that changes. Any buyer will be thinking exactly what you are thinking now. In my opinion, the stamp detracts from the rifle. I would ask for discount price, for that reason.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 12/04/2003 : 08:55:37 AM
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Depends on just what they mean by "8mm Carcanos" and where and what type of "Nazi stamp" is applied. If what they are plugging are the two-recoil bolt jobs I would be VERY suspicious.



Atlpete
Posted - 12/07/2003 : 12:44:49 AM
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Recoil lugs were inserted in the 8mm versions to reinforce the stock against the pounding of firing the 8MM mauser cartridge from such a diminutive carbine. I'm not well versed on the 8mm TS but what I think Wapruf2 is alluding to is that apparently the postwar conversions have two such staybolts while the authentic WWII conversions had only one. Other characterisitcs of the post-war jobs include scrubbed receivers and crudely stamped 7.9 on the rear site. There have been many posts regarding these, recommend you do some research before wasting your time with HL, though I too would like it if David or Alexander could describe what definitive markings (S on the reciver, etc) or characteristics indicate the true wartime conversions (or production.)



DMala
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 11:34:03 AM
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Anyhow, I meant to say that in my opinion it is better not to refer to pre- and post-war 8mm conversions because:

- Although likely, the fact that some conversions were built post-war has not been proven.
- The Italian conversions were initially produced in the early WWII years, by Terni and FNA which stamped dates on the barrels. Actually a few pre-WWII dates have been reported too. Then at some point later, possibly post-war, more were produced, resembling the FNA stamps and often bearing the L. Franchi stamp under the receiver tang.


So, in my opinion it would be better to talk about Italian or German conversions, the former characterized by the two recoil lugs and lack of German stampings, the latter characterized by one recoil lug and German stamps and serial umber superimposed on the Italian stamps.



Carcano
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 1:37:28 PM
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The German and Italian conversions are clearly distinct, and not just by their markings. The Germans undertook conversions of the M 91/41 long rifle and M 91/38 short rifle, while the Italian 8mm guns mostly consist of Moschetti TS 38 and a few cavalry carbines.

We still lack authentic data, but the Italian conversions encompass several distinct sub-models, distinguishable both by the barrel markings and by the caliber indication, and also by a few dimensional differences which David Franchi has painstakingly researched. And then there are the "early" 8mm guns, most from 1941 (RE TERNI), but also a few older FNA BRESCIA ones. Since their serial number range does not seem to match the otherwise common serial number batches of "normal" Moschetti TS, this would support a hypothesis of a wartime project (troop trial), which was taken up again some time after the war. Too much speculation to be comfortable...



DMala
Posted - 12/15/2003 : 1:50:46 PM
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Alexander, what you say is correct, in fact I was just trying to avoid simplifying the issue to "pre" and "post" war categories. Within the Italian and German conversions, there are indeed many additional categories.



Franchi
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 5:16:28 PM
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First the German firm of Heinrich Krieghoff (HK) converted M41 long rifles, M38 short rifles and M38 cavalry carbines to 7.9 (8mm) Mauser (about 1000 of each).

German H&K Carcano conversions only have one German style recoil lug bolt (usually marked with a "G"), the Italian 8mm had two Italian recoil bolts. The German H&K receiver (on single shot models, 98% were single shot)) were not grooved/cut at the front like the Italian 8mm and most Italian receivers were also marked with a large "S". They didn't have to groove/cut the German (HK) receiver (on the single shot) as they weren't loaded with a clip. The Italian 8mm will have the rear sight marked 7,9 or 7,92, German (HK) model sights are not marked 7,9/7,92 they still have the original caliber, sometimes lined/marked out. The German (HK) will have 7.9 on the barrel step at the receiver with (HK) below this on the receiver. The (HK) will have a small German test proof on the right side of the barrel near the receiver (there are no other German test proofs of acceptance marks, except some will have "HZa" marked stocks). The (HK) will have an added "H" prefix serial on the barrel, left side of the stock edge by the receiver, and electric penciled on the bolt body. The (HK) should also have a wood magazine block but many of these were lost or removed by the U.S. G.I.'s etc. There are also some changes in the sights, but the above should help tell an Italian 8mm from a German conversion.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 12/18/2003 : 2:18:17 PM
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Given the frequency with which questions come up about "8mm Carcanos", whether German conversions or otherwise, it might be a good idea to formulate a careful explanation of both types, label the topic something like "8mm ITALIAN/GERMAN CARCANOS" and make it a sticky on this forum. Might save considerable aggravation and reinventing of the wheel....
A bibliography of printed works discussing them should probably be included, or at least a link to the Carcano Bibliography site.



War is Peace
Posted - 02/27/2004 : 11:42:29 PM
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This topic is addressed in this thread of posts (has now also been transferred, Carcano):

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=26016
 

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That may not be the only type of problem.

I ordered some odds and ends from them last year.

Took two months to ship.

AND my next credit card statement had half a dozen charges on it made by someone besides me.

I had not used the card for about three months and am almost sure they were made by one of their employees.

My card company made it good but still something to beware of.
 
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