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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
You'll see my thread below about the three previously misidentified Iraq Enfields which I now know were picked up in Afghanistan.

Now I am reading that these might be well made fakes made by Afghans for years????

Two of the three are not rifled??

The breach lock barrel is rifled but the two muskets just look like rusted sewer pipes inside. No rifling that I can see at all.

Any other way to determine if these are original??
 

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"Rusted sewer pipe" is as likely to be original on a rifle/musket of that vintage as not. The only way to get a good idea of originality is to take it apart and inspect it piece by piece. IMO, they are more likely to be a combination of original and "locally produced" parts than outright fakes. Only disassembly and a close look at all markings will tell you for sure.
 

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Farmall asks: "Now I am reading that these might be well made fakes made by Afghans for years????"

Short answer: You bet ! Take it to the bank.

Sadly the great arms bazaar in Peshawar in Pakistan is not a safe place to visit but if
you could, you'd see masters of fake / clone weapons makers pounding out weapons of all types.

To a lesser scale (Peshawar is huge scale), just behind the shop fronts in Kabul, Afghanistan on Chicken Street are small hovels where 3 band Enfields & Martini Henry rifles are pounded out and fabricated. In 04, I got invited by a shop owner to go see that and I was amazed. What proof mark you want...they got quite a menu , pick what you want !

Granted there were weapons with a mix of real and faked parts but about 06 onwards, the majority were all clones of local fabricated parts and really looked the part.
 

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Milprileb, I saw a few of these for sale in the shop on Camp Eggers in 09-10. I could tell some parts were original, but I knew a good many parts were reproductions. For some reason, I recall that the majority of seemed to have what looked like original stocks.

I was sorely tempted to get one, although the ~$350 (IIRC) asking was not palatable at the time. Now I wish I had bought one.

I did pick up a few Stahlhelms from that shop, though. Ironically, that was the one thing I had hoped to find before I deployed, so I was pretty pleased.
 

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It's perfectly true that you can get anything from a matchlock to an AK made and marked to order in any number of places in the region, and it is also perfectly true that there were vast stores of European weaponry sent into A'stan by all of the players of the "great game" from the very early Victorian period on. It's pointless to speculate much on any individual piece(s) without good clear closeup pictures of all of the parts and markings thereon.

I'll reiterate on one item though...the Snider barreled action is a good'un. Other than that it's all idle chatter, my opinion included.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·


The strangely modern font on the "1859" started me wondering. Totally different font than the "Enfield" below it.

Then I notice the 1859 Carbine just has a metal V notch welded on top of the barrel, a totally different rear sight than the other two....AND it does not line up with the front sight!!!! Its at least a couple degrees off center.

Wow. Interesting little education I am getting here
 

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There is quite a bit wrong with that lock plate. And while the V-notch sight in this case is almost certainly a homegrown addition, it's not very unusual to find old military arms in the region somewhat "neutered", with plain notch sights and smoothbore barrels...for various reasons.

Proof and view marks on the barrel are a good place to start...are there any on the two muzzle loaders? The Snider looks okay in that regard.

The study of the arms coming out of Afghanistan and Pakistan (India too, for that matter), can be both very interesting, and very frustrating.

I was just thinking that if there's a mod about, it might be a good idea to move this thread down to the British Gun Pub.
 

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If one even suspects a weapon came from Afghanistan or Pakistan, my suggestion is never fire it.

I brought back a 3 Band Enfield and a Cavalry Carbine. In 03, long before the big influx of Nato and things were cheap, few US in Kabul and I had free reign to move around arms dealers. I had a dealer tear apart a bunch of weapons on his rack and build me (in front of me at the time) the rifle and carbine of correct original parts for a premium price at the time (it was cheap nonetheless) and as I walked away with both weapons I said to myself: "You either got real parts or the best faked real parts on these weapons, never trust an Afghan arms dealer to do you a good turn". I would not bet the farm I did not get fleeced and scammed ! I consider them souvenirs , not antiques nor collectables. Fire them ? NO WAY.
 

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In the REME Museum in Arborfield, Berkshire England, there is an almost PERFECT Afghan-made replication of a MkIII* Lee-Enfield. Except for two details -

1. Every single letter and number stamped on it, including the backsight and various 'rack' and 'unit' stamps on the woodwork, is a mirror image of the real thing.

2. ....it's a about a .38cal smoothbore, too.

tac
 
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