[vintovka]

I think all the replicas have really done a number on the real ex-snipers. The cost of "resnipering" them with original scopes and mounts (let alone original bolts and stocks) is way too pricey and doesn't make sense to me anymore.

 

[Radom]

As well as doing a number or real, but rearsenalled PU sniper rifles. Even those don't make sense to me any longer.

 

[mikana]

Who knows. Mine certainly doesn't have the original stock. There is another peice that we haven't discussed. The fact that the rifle is an ex sniper means it has had some other than normal, interesting, maybe even highly historic past. It was handled, cared for, and used by someone who was specially trained in its use for precision, accurate shooting. MN enthusiasts pay a premium for that all the time. Just my very respectful .02 worth.

 

[DCman]

I think what this post proves is that once again we should not use the terms "always" or "never" when talking about our beloved Mosins.

 

[mike radford]

NOBODY proved all ex snipers shoot better than all other refurb 91/30s. Lots of never-a-sniper, refurbed 91/30s shoot quite well, too. All the special work put into the rifles as they were originally assembled is out the door, not relevant, on a refurbed rifle which probably has no more parts that are original to each other than the barrel & receiver. Value is best determined by the buyer, for the buyer, no doubt. Don't have a problem with that. Thanks for telling me I'm full of sh!t when you have no more definitive information on this than anybody.
My reason for posting on this issue, much more than anything else, is simply to point out that just because everyone else goes nuts over something doesn't mean it's a universally accepted thing. Far from it.

Steven, I never said you were full of it. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I agree many non-snipers shoot well. I also agree that you may only get the benefit of a hand selected barreled receiver in an ex-sniper when it comes to accuracy. That is something plus the history.

I do not say I have any definitive information on this other than quite a bit of experience with ex-snipers, both restored and not restored. Plus, this is what I like and study. I just have a somewhat informed opinion. I also follow the market values on these. They certainly do vary. The 47 on the trader recently was pretty pricey. A 42 Tula, PU or PEM, will not be cheap either, unless you are real lucky.

 

[dbarile]

Ex-Snipers can be found everywhere. At the last show I found 2 ex snipers 44 and a 42 izzy ex PU, both for around $80. I passed on them.

I'll have to remember to get you to point them out to me at the next show.

 

[Radom]

Appreciate the email, Mike. It really is not a problem, you and I are all good. I have ulterior motive here. In our large internet community, values and desireability are frequently driven by just a handful of people. Most are genuine in their feelings, but sometimes that is combined with a few who are making money off the situation. Not saying that is evil, necessarily, just that one should consider the source. Newbies come in and see a ton of posts from guys all freaked out that they found an ex-sniper. Or, an ex-dragoon. And post replies backing up the original posters feelings. They think these feelings are universal and that they should feel the same way. I offer a different view. How do we decide what rifles to buy? Over a longer period of time, if a collector stays with it, he is likely to become a bit more particular in his likes & dislikes. The longer he stays with buying larger quantities of lesser rifles, the less money he has later to buy more collectible (and more expensive) pieces. It'll be a lot harder to sell many less collectible ones than just a few very collectible ones. I suggest NOT ending up with a bunch of guns that leave you wondering why you bought them, years down the line. 'Why did I spend X on those 3 or 4 (or 12) usetobees when I could save been more patient and ended up with one great real one?' I did not start out with resale of my collection in mind. Eventually, one best give it some consideration. When I see an ex-sniper or ex-dragoon, I am not excited. I am disappointed. All this just to show that one does not HAVE to automatically follow the masses.
Definitive. One of my new words! Way too often, someone gives an opinion that ends up regarded as gospel, when it ain't. I've been using that word a lot, lately. I will continue to.....
One can quote current sales as an indication of value, but consider how it got that way. And, wonder if it will stay that way. Very generally, values grow & remain high on higher quality items. Sometimes fads become boring and value plummets.
All that crap said, everyone does get to decide for themselves what they like and how much they like it. Just take to time to keep track of precisely how you came to value something so highly. The devil sometimes lies in there...

 

[Denny]

Radom, i think your last post offers some real words of wisdom, and I also like your new word of usetobees. I can see the arguements in posts to come....are usetobees collectable? I hope not. Denny

 

[Radom]

Thanks Denny. Nothing I say should be considered, uh, DEFINITIVE, for everyone. I just know that once in a while (at the very least!), someone should take the time to point out that the prevailing opinion is not the only one. Shiite happens, when collecting (or, piling them up, whatever you may call it). Just try to sell 15 refurbs when the wifes car blows up. Compare it to the trouble of selling one all original whatever to cover the emergency. It is good that there are lots of options, some fairly inexpensive, for guys to be interested in and spend their hard earned money on. If there is tons of money, hell, buy them all. I'm pretty sure 'usetobees' (lol, I'm probably gonna be sorry I coined that!) ARE collectible. If collected as what they ARE and not what they WERE and not what we think we can turn it back into. Everything in it's place.

I should add, WHY we think something is usually more important than WHAT we think. Especially matters in these questions of value.

 

[vintovka]

I look at MN ex snipers in what may be a whole different (and sombering) way. Saw my first one in SEA after they dragged the rifle (and the snipers remains) back to the command post. They dropped a mortar on him for potting away at the post and making the sand bags leak. If anyone died with a rifle in his/her hands it was a sniper.

 

[ncreptile]

Steven, I never said you were full of it. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I agree many non-snipers shoot well. I also agree that you may only get the benefit of a hand selected barreled receiver in an ex-sniper when it comes to accuracy. That is something plus the history.

I do not say I have any definitive information on this other than quite a bit of experience with ex-snipers, both restored and not restored. Plus, this is what I like and study. I just have a somewhat informed opinion. I also follow the market values on these. They certainly do vary. The 47 on the trader recently was pretty pricey. A 42 Tula, PU or PEM, will not be cheap either, unless you are real lucky.

I have my doubts on that 47 tula.
When something is TO perfect I tend to wonder.
That blueing looks to recent, I cant see the "7" in 1947. And a matching bayonet along with everything else?
Sorry, sounds to good to be true even if the price isnt. This is of course my own opinion. But before I hand out that kinda cash I would need some more pictures.

 

[ncreptile]

I'll have to remember to get you to point them out to me at the next show.

Not to hard, next time you go send me a PM.
For one you can check for a SN on the side of the receiver if its an Izvesk, usually it will be lined out.

If its a TULA there sometimes are a CN or CH stamped on the receiver near the top.

Then just ask the seller to open the action, check for 2 holes(may be just 1 or 4) all depends on what type. if there are holes filled in on the left side of receiver you got an ex sniper.

 

[mikana]

Like I said, my ex-sniper was an accident and cost me exactly the same as the non-exsnipers that were on the rack. To me the real value is in the fact that something is different about this rifle than the million or so that came off the line that year. Something different sets it apart. Some guys get interested in different stamps or other oddities that set that rifle apart. To me the ex sniper means someone, maybe a series of someones took an extra interest in this rifle. It presumably went into the field with a specially trained soldier with skills to do a specialized job, a job that was designed to allow one man/woman to turn the direction of a battle with a well placed 7.62 piece of metal fired from that rifle.

Now I know there were tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands just like mine. I also know there were millions that never got that distinction. It may very well never be worth more than those other millions. That's not what I'm in it for, not yet at least. I have 6 kids and limited funds. My grandfather fought in the war where this rifle likely saw action. This is a way that someone like me, with little cash, can connect with that history. The fact that there's something a little different or special about the rifle I happened to wind up with means something to me.

That's why, if I had only $90 to buy 91/30, I would buy an ex-sniper over the others.

To you guys who are way further along (experience and cash) in this hobby than us newbies, I would say thanks for all your knowledge and support. However, I would also encourage you to not create a sub-set of "MN snobs" who look down on those of us who are getting started. Again, I say that with great respect and no intention of accusation, just a reminder that an ex-sniper is about the most collectible MN some of us can afford.

I don't intend to make any money off these guns. I tend to get attached. But I would pay a little more for a rifle with some "extra" history.

 

[Radom]

"To you guys who are way further along (experience and cash) in this hobby than us newbies, I would say thanks for all your knowledge and support. However, I would also encourage you to not create a sub-set of "MN snobs" who look down on those of us who are getting started. Again, I say that with great respect and no intention of accusation, just a reminder that an ex-sniper is about the most collectible MN some of us can afford."

Very few actually 'look down' on newer collectors. There is room for folks at all levels of collecting. It ain't like I don't ever buy $100 rifles, just not 30-50 a year, as in the past. After dozens, hundreds of, so far, lesser collectibles, I do wish I'd 'stepped up' earlier. Nothing wrong with a $90 ex-sniper. Now, a $400 ex sniper, well........
Bears pointing out that, if it weren't for a couple of what some might call Mosin Snobs, this place would not be here at all. This particular forum is called The Collector's Forum - Mosin Nagant HQ, for a reason. Although that is sometimes ignored too much to suit me.
To each their own. But, keep it in perspective.

 

[Pahtu]

"Why did I spend X on those 3 or 4 (or 12) usetobees when I could save been more patient and ended up with one great real one?"

Good point & one o the reasons I have moved my nice, but no longer interesting items this past year - If one wants to & can, it is always best to pick up more interesting & valuable items - Besides....I don't have a basement to toss em into a pile

Pahtu.

 

[tc2006]

Dang ! I didn't know rguns had them for $100. That's the market value then.
I'm wrong. I'm ordering one next Monday. It's a great bolt action rifle independent
of any historical interest. The ex-sniper status simply means it passed some
accuracy test at one time & thus improve the liklihood of a good shooter. Why
bother with a remchester ?

 

[ncreptile]

Dang ! I didn't know rguns had them for $100. That's the market value then.
I'm wrong. I'm ordering one next Monday. It's a great bolt action rifle independent
of any historical interest. The ex-sniper status simply means it passed some
accuracy test at one time & thus improve the liklihood of a good shooter. Why
bother with a remchester ?

that will be your little secret