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Does anyone have and info if a scope marked Henry & Co, Edingburg, with claw mounts is English military?? If so is it WW1 vintage.
Thanks in advance
J. Strunk
Thanks in advance
J. Strunk
English rifle scope??
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47 Posts
Alexander Henry Telescopic Sight
Hi John
The scope wouldn't happen to be a German C P Goerz Certar model either 3 or 4 1/2 power would it?
By the way Alexander Henry was a Scottish gunsmith, and designer of the Henry rifling not English.
Hi John
The scope wouldn't happen to be a German C P Goerz Certar model either 3 or 4 1/2 power would it?
By the way Alexander Henry was a Scottish gunsmith, and designer of the Henry rifling not English.
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424 Posts
Hi Simon
I'm not sure on this one either, I've attached a pic of the scope, the rings attached appear to be soldered into place for a side hook up. I think, but am not sure if this would be correct for an old WW1 lee enfield. The seller claims the wheel is marked from 1 thru 9 which suggests it was set for military use.
The pic is from the seller.
Hi Chugg
Not sure on the scope if it's German made. Please see attached pic ( yea, I know it's not that good). The seller claims the scope is marked Henry & Co. Perhaps it's just a sporter which used a German made scope which was put together by Henry & co.
I was thinking that this was a UK scope that was pressed into service in early WW1 when the english ran into the German snipers with scoped rifles and was captured by the Germans and brought home as was booty. However, not really sure on this now, if it's a German made scope.
Anyway, thank you for your info
J. Strunk
I'm not sure on this one either, I've attached a pic of the scope, the rings attached appear to be soldered into place for a side hook up. I think, but am not sure if this would be correct for an old WW1 lee enfield. The seller claims the wheel is marked from 1 thru 9 which suggests it was set for military use.
The pic is from the seller.
Hi Chugg
Not sure on the scope if it's German made. Please see attached pic ( yea, I know it's not that good). The seller claims the scope is marked Henry & Co. Perhaps it's just a sporter which used a German made scope which was put together by Henry & co.
I was thinking that this was a UK scope that was pressed into service in early WW1 when the english ran into the German snipers with scoped rifles and was captured by the Germans and brought home as was booty. However, not really sure on this now, if it's a German made scope.
Anyway, thank you for your info
J. Strunk
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163 Posts
John,
Looking at the picture the scope appears to be an Aldis pattern IV. Ask the seller if there is anything written on the objective end of the scope? A lot of these scope where sold off into the gun trade at the end of the Great War and ended up on sporting rifles which at a guess is what hapened to this one.
Cheers,
Simon.
B.T.W. If the scope isn't what you're looking for I'd be interested in buying it.
Looking at the picture the scope appears to be an Aldis pattern IV. Ask the seller if there is anything written on the objective end of the scope? A lot of these scope where sold off into the gun trade at the end of the Great War and ended up on sporting rifles which at a guess is what hapened to this one.
Cheers,
Simon.
B.T.W. If the scope isn't what you're looking for I'd be interested in buying it.
Aldis No4, as mentioned.
The markings on the scope tube, if any, and on the range drum (knob) will tell whether it is a WWI fitting or post-war sporting fitting.
If the drum/knob is marked 1 to 6,8 or 10, you've probably got a WWI fitting for an SMLE or P14, more likely the SMLE from the distance between the rings. Those markings were usually removed if fitted up for a sporting rifle post-war.
Is there a rifle serial number on the scope tube, or other markings? If so, probably a WWI fitting.
Never heard of another. Can you post some better photos?
The markings on the scope tube, if any, and on the range drum (knob) will tell whether it is a WWI fitting or post-war sporting fitting.
If the drum/knob is marked 1 to 6,8 or 10, you've probably got a WWI fitting for an SMLE or P14, more likely the SMLE from the distance between the rings. Those markings were usually removed if fitted up for a sporting rifle post-war.
Is there a rifle serial number on the scope tube, or other markings? If so, probably a WWI fitting.
Never heard of another. Can you post some better photos?
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163 Posts
Sorry but I'm not convinced it's a Great War fitting!!
Keep in mind the thinking of the time regarding offset mounts etc. British rifles where set up during WWI with an offset scope, with the exception of the Patt 14 in late 1918, and some experimental overhead mounts for the S.M.L.E based on those for the Patt 14 which where trialled very very late in the war.
The attached pic is taken from Skennerton's "British Sniper" page 92 and shows a Aldis patt IV with rings of a similar style and spacing to those shown above and the scope in question is from a post war sporting rifle in this case by Holland and Holland.
Cheers,
Simon.
Keep in mind the thinking of the time regarding offset mounts etc. British rifles where set up during WWI with an offset scope, with the exception of the Patt 14 in late 1918, and some experimental overhead mounts for the S.M.L.E based on those for the Patt 14 which where trialled very very late in the war.
The attached pic is taken from Skennerton's "British Sniper" page 92 and shows a Aldis patt IV with rings of a similar style and spacing to those shown above and the scope in question is from a post war sporting rifle in this case by Holland and Holland.
Cheers,
Simon.
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424 Posts
More pic's and price question
Please see attached pic's that I received from the seller
what is the asking price for these scopes, in other words there general value.
Please see attached pic's that I received from the seller
what is the asking price for these scopes, in other words there general value.
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163 Posts
John,
Difficult to say really, my usual answer is "it's worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for it". From a personal point of view if I where buying it I guess I would look to pay around £250 to £300 as it is not a known great war mount type so I would be buying it purely for the scope. Sorry if its a bit vague but if you want to PM me with any more details you have on the scope (optical condition etc) I may be able to give you something a bit more accurate.
Cheers,
Simon.
Difficult to say really, my usual answer is "it's worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for it". From a personal point of view if I where buying it I guess I would look to pay around £250 to £300 as it is not a known great war mount type so I would be buying it purely for the scope. Sorry if its a bit vague but if you want to PM me with any more details you have on the scope (optical condition etc) I may be able to give you something a bit more accurate.
Cheers,
Simon.
Well I wasn't convinced it was a WWI military fitting either - until I saw your last photos.
Now I would say I'm 95% convinced that it is.
From the examples that survive, the range markings were usually removed when these scopes were refurbished by the gun trade post-WWI for use on sporting rifles, for the obvious reason that many, probably most of those rifles were not in .303, and in most cases did not re-use the original military mounts, so that the original markings would not necessarily correspond even if the rifle was in .303. This pattern scope, like the one above, has an adjustable range scale that can be slid around and locked by set screws when the scope is zeroed for range, earlier models generally did not. So, if this were on a .303 sporting rifle, it could in theory, have used the original range scale.
Note that the scope above has a high polish, unlike this one.
The mounts are very similar to the Aldis No4 scope that showed up on eBay a while back with mounts by George Gibbs of Bristol. Also an "unknown" type, but in a marked WWI scope case to boot. Another "undocumented" mount system and maker, and only because the records no longer exist.
The markings on the tube are very similar to that found on many other Aldis scopes: the gun makers seem to have usually engraved their names on the scope tubes.
The fact is that there were dozens of different combinations of scopes and mounts used. Skennerton lists something like 27 different scope & mount combinations in the Pattern Room collection in the 1920s. Few records exist of who made what and when. You may well have a unique example there of one of these mounts systems that are known now only by name.
Word seems to have got back from France by 1916/17 that overbore mounts were what was wanted. It stands to reason that the smaller gunmakers would respond to that more quickly than the larger outfits such as Persiscopic Prism, Holland & Holland, Purdey etc. who had larger contracts and better connections with the source of contracts. The smaller gunmakers outside London had every reason to try harder in the hope of more and larger contracts if their mount systems were favourably reported on from France. Worth remembering that all this was done by businesses looking to make money as far as their capacities and consciences would allow.
Now I would say I'm 95% convinced that it is.
From the examples that survive, the range markings were usually removed when these scopes were refurbished by the gun trade post-WWI for use on sporting rifles, for the obvious reason that many, probably most of those rifles were not in .303, and in most cases did not re-use the original military mounts, so that the original markings would not necessarily correspond even if the rifle was in .303. This pattern scope, like the one above, has an adjustable range scale that can be slid around and locked by set screws when the scope is zeroed for range, earlier models generally did not. So, if this were on a .303 sporting rifle, it could in theory, have used the original range scale.
Note that the scope above has a high polish, unlike this one.
The mounts are very similar to the Aldis No4 scope that showed up on eBay a while back with mounts by George Gibbs of Bristol. Also an "unknown" type, but in a marked WWI scope case to boot. Another "undocumented" mount system and maker, and only because the records no longer exist.
The markings on the tube are very similar to that found on many other Aldis scopes: the gun makers seem to have usually engraved their names on the scope tubes.
The fact is that there were dozens of different combinations of scopes and mounts used. Skennerton lists something like 27 different scope & mount combinations in the Pattern Room collection in the 1920s. Few records exist of who made what and when. You may well have a unique example there of one of these mounts systems that are known now only by name.
Word seems to have got back from France by 1916/17 that overbore mounts were what was wanted. It stands to reason that the smaller gunmakers would respond to that more quickly than the larger outfits such as Persiscopic Prism, Holland & Holland, Purdey etc. who had larger contracts and better connections with the source of contracts. The smaller gunmakers outside London had every reason to try harder in the hope of more and larger contracts if their mount systems were favourably reported on from France. Worth remembering that all this was done by businesses looking to make money as far as their capacities and consciences would allow.
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163 Posts
Ross,
You've got me there, I've never seen that set up before and you say the case was W/|\D marked?
Do you have any more photo's?
Did you happen to see the Fidjelands scope go through E-bay last week? I forgot about the auction and missed it Groan, mutter, grumble etc!!!!
Cheers,
Simon.
You've got me there, I've never seen that set up before and you say the case was W/|\D marked?
Do you have any more photo's?
Did you happen to see the Fidjelands scope go through E-bay last week? I forgot about the auction and missed it Groan, mutter, grumble etc!!!!
Cheers,
Simon.
I believe the case was numbered to the scope yes, though I could be wrong at this distance of time.
There were photos of another Gibbs fitting with almost identical rings. I believe the scope was identified as an Oigee by someone else. Quite possible it was a captured scope reused during the war. Some seem to have been fitted up even in France.
I didn't see the Fidgelands, no. Anyone save the photos?
Regards.
There were photos of another Gibbs fitting with almost identical rings. I believe the scope was identified as an Oigee by someone else. Quite possible it was a captured scope reused during the war. Some seem to have been fitted up even in France.
I didn't see the Fidgelands, no. Anyone save the photos?
Regards.
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424 Posts
Well sometimes things simply don't work out, actual, this item went much high than I was willing to go. Although, I have an all matching rifle, the odd's of ever, ever finding a matching base for this, only because it's almost a one of a kind mount, did anyone notice that it's a claw in the back and a round pin in the front?
Basically, this is more slanted for pure scope collectors, were as, I at least like to try and put together a rifle/mount/scope combo.
I actually, have zero knowledge of English/UK/Commonwealth rifles/snipers. However, I do have two Mk1 III which I've never fired.
I really not sure if this was a ww1 set up or a post war set up which was subsquently taken over there again (more than liklely by an Officer). However, I am sure that this fell into German Hands as war booty (typical pulled scope, mount and rings of war booty) the only question I really have was it taken in WW1 or in the early stages of ww2.
It should be noted the scope and mount was being offered for sales by someone in Germany who didn' exactly know what they had other than it was a English sniper scope.
Simon, I was going to e-mail you about the seller and item, but your Email wasn't working per another poster. However, I don't think it matter, and I don't think it will ever leave Germany
J strunk
Basically, this is more slanted for pure scope collectors, were as, I at least like to try and put together a rifle/mount/scope combo.
I actually, have zero knowledge of English/UK/Commonwealth rifles/snipers. However, I do have two Mk1 III which I've never fired.
I really not sure if this was a ww1 set up or a post war set up which was subsquently taken over there again (more than liklely by an Officer). However, I am sure that this fell into German Hands as war booty (typical pulled scope, mount and rings of war booty) the only question I really have was it taken in WW1 or in the early stages of ww2.
It should be noted the scope and mount was being offered for sales by someone in Germany who didn' exactly know what they had other than it was a English sniper scope.
Simon, I was going to e-mail you about the seller and item, but your Email wasn't working per another poster. However, I don't think it matter, and I don't think it will ever leave Germany
J strunk
Hard to say. I traded an Aldis from a collector in Germany once, that had previously been in an English collection. The stuff moves around.
On the other hand, some very nice war bring-backs have shown up in Germany; an absolutely mint Holland & Holland Aldis in the case for example.
Quite possible this was a WWI bringback, as an awful lot of kit was captured during the German offensive in March 1918 and the over-running of the 5th Army. Just when this sort of thing would have been there.
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Hi Ross280
This German wasn't exactly postive as to what he had, other than it was British and more than likely a sniper scope, because the dial went 1 thru 9. His lack of knowledge and his initial price sort of suggested he wasn't a collector and didn't obtain this from a another collector in Germany. Everything to me pointed to War booty, which pushed this more and more into being military. The only thing that confussed me was the lack of Henry & co info doing militray rigs.
As for me, I also had a clue she was military because of the dial, however, outside of that I was clueless because my collection with scoped rifles are all German and Russian and I never did English. I should note that I do have two Mk 1, III, 1916 & a 1940 (dispersal) both matching. I believe every collector should own at least one of these only because of the histroy they have.
Anyway, thank you for your info, and I hope you as well as Simon have a nice Holiday.
In addition, I hope this the info on Henry & co helps fill-in any lose data on scoped military rigs used by Uk forces in WW1
B/T/W the final price on this scope & mount was 444 Eur's.
J. strunk
This German wasn't exactly postive as to what he had, other than it was British and more than likely a sniper scope, because the dial went 1 thru 9. His lack of knowledge and his initial price sort of suggested he wasn't a collector and didn't obtain this from a another collector in Germany. Everything to me pointed to War booty, which pushed this more and more into being military. The only thing that confussed me was the lack of Henry & co info doing militray rigs.
As for me, I also had a clue she was military because of the dial, however, outside of that I was clueless because my collection with scoped rifles are all German and Russian and I never did English. I should note that I do have two Mk 1, III, 1916 & a 1940 (dispersal) both matching. I believe every collector should own at least one of these only because of the histroy they have.
Anyway, thank you for your info, and I hope you as well as Simon have a nice Holiday.
In addition, I hope this the info on Henry & co helps fill-in any lose data on scoped military rigs used by Uk forces in WW1
B/T/W the final price on this scope & mount was 444 Eur's.
J. strunk
That was a bargain price. This is the irony, the more rare the piece the less well documented and therefore the less interest from the average collector.
The range dial is the proof; I know of only one other British fitted scope with 1 - 6/8/9/10 markings (hundreds of yards obviously) that was (probably) not a military fitting, and in that case, it appears to me that the markings are too close together for .303 to have been the cartridge used.
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