Krag
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 2:00:18 PM
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I was recently speaking with Ian Skennerton who informed me that during WW2 Lightgow Arsenal rebarreled and modified Italian Carcanos and Breda LMGs to fire the .303 British cartridge. Some of the latter were supplied to the KNIL in the Dutch East Indies.
Atlpete
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 2:46:41 PM
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To quote Carson "I did not know that" I bet you Doc AV has one, maybe even our moderator? I'd be interested in how they contrast with standard 6.5x52 with regard to shooting characteristics as well as mechanism. Very interesting
Papa G
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 3:31:34 PM
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it was the Dutch M-95 Mannlicher that were converted.
Krag
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 4:14:09 PM
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Papa - yes they did those also. Ian said he examined samples of both rifles.
Papa G
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 7:47:55 PM
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if that is so how did the aussies over come the amount of 'smithing to make it work???
the M-95 Dutch was alot easier to convert.
i would like to know all the details how did they get to Australia from Italy to the final end use.
Krag
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 8:53:26 PM
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They were captured from Italian forces in Somalia and Ethiopia and the Brits sent them to Australia. The work was done at the Lithgow arsenal. Ian said he will be having a report on them on his website sometime in tnhe future.
I just finished reading (slowly, LOL) an article in the Dutch magazine SAM WAPENMAGAZINE in which they talked about the .303 Breda LMGs and even had photos of them in use with KNIL troops.
NebrHogger
Posted - 07/31/2004 : 12:50:54 PM
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The first question that comes to mind is the issue of clips. I'd very much like to see a pic of a Carcano so converted. SW
DocAV
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 4:53:29 PM
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With regard to the Italian rifle and LMG suypply to the Dutch: 10,000 Carcano rifles and carbines were supplied by the British via Australia in late 1941 after the collapse of AOI (Italian East Africa);These were in 6,5 Italian Calibre. I have a Indonesian re-stocked TERNI Long M91, using a handmade copy of the Dutch M95 Rifle stock, and still in 6,5 calibre.
The Documentation says (Australian External Affairs files dealing with Military Aid to KNIL) that the rifles simply transited Australia on their way to Batavia, and that the Italian Ammunition was supplied as well.
As to the Breda M1930 LMG, I have only come to the knowledge that these were supplied as well from AOI Captures, and probably North Africa as well.(The Dutch Web Page notes them as KNIL Weapons, but omits some of the Vickers suppled in .303 from the USA ( at the same time as the Johnson First delivery)
There was also mention( in this documentation) of the request by the Dutch Gov't in Exile (in Britain) for a complete factory from Australia to produce .303 Ammo, obviously for the KNIL Airforce and those weapons already in .303 ( the American Sourced Vickers) in NI.This was overtaken by the events of 1941, and the scarcity of cartridge machinery from Australia at the time.
Regarding Lithgow's involvement, the Aussie conversion of the M95(Dutch Mannlicher) Long Rifles to .303 is well documented (Base Ordnance Workshops in Sydney did the disassembly and re-assembly, and Lithgow did the boring re-rifling and re-chambering). These rifles were Lost at sea Nov-December 1941 ( Possible Japanese Submarine Action prior to Dec. 7th)
As to the "conversion" of the Carcanos and Breda guns, I would be of the opinion that Maybe some "prototype" work was done, but the difficulty in converting a "rimless" gun to a "Rimmed "Gun would be,
at that period of the War, an insurmountable obstacle for an already overworked SAF Lithgow...as was seen, the workload was already such that the Dutch Mannlichers were " contracted out" and only the barrel work was done at Lithgow.
The technical difficulty to convert the Breda, from a (relatively) Low Powered 6,5 Carcano cartridge, to the much more powerful .303 is in the realms of fantasy. The very nature of the hesitation Lock system used by the Breda gave difficulties of case separation and cook-offs with the 6,5 cartridge...imagine the disaster with a much more potent .303 round...also the technical problems of designing a completely new magazine with a large curve to accomodate the large diameter rim of the .303. Not for nothing the normal Italian LMG team carried FOUR (yes FOUR) spare barrels per gun into battle (Photos exist of Nth. African combat of Gun No.2 men carrying a back board with the four spare barrels... for cooling and the everpresent
ruptured case problem, due to (a) gritty chambers...the Breda used a Oil-squirt chamber lubrication and (b) the "unlocked" hesitation Lock, which allowed the chamber to open before the pressures had decreased sufficiently to allow the case body to "float" free and be extracted easily.(c) barreels also overheated easily, despite the fins, and this produced dangerous "cook-offs", usually before the bolt reached battery ( premature ignition).
Another thing is that there is very Little (NO) indication that the Breda guns were ever used by anybody in Indonesia, either during the Japanese Invasion, or by the INA ( the Indonesian Puppet army under the occupation,) or during the "Political Actions" (Post WW-II War of Independance.) None have shown up in Indonesia since 1949 either.They may still be in store at Bandoeng or Soerabaya, or just have been melted down as so much scrap metal.
On the other hand, the Japanese used widely and appreciated the Short KNIL Model Madsen LMG, in 6,5 Dutch, and these were widely re-issued to Japanese troops as far afield as the Solomons, along with re-labelled Dutch Ammo ( I have a complete 500 round Dutch Tin, with Japanese script on one side, Dutch on the other.)
Another mystery coming out of the back-rooms of Lithgow.
Krag
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 08:37:53 AM
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Ian has the info on an updated bulletin: http://www.skennerton.com/bb.html
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 2:00:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was recently speaking with Ian Skennerton who informed me that during WW2 Lightgow Arsenal rebarreled and modified Italian Carcanos and Breda LMGs to fire the .303 British cartridge. Some of the latter were supplied to the KNIL in the Dutch East Indies.
Atlpete
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 2:46:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To quote Carson "I did not know that" I bet you Doc AV has one, maybe even our moderator? I'd be interested in how they contrast with standard 6.5x52 with regard to shooting characteristics as well as mechanism. Very interesting
Papa G
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 3:31:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it was the Dutch M-95 Mannlicher that were converted.
Krag
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 4:14:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Papa - yes they did those also. Ian said he examined samples of both rifles.
Papa G
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 7:47:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if that is so how did the aussies over come the amount of 'smithing to make it work???
the M-95 Dutch was alot easier to convert.
i would like to know all the details how did they get to Australia from Italy to the final end use.
Krag
Posted - 07/30/2004 : 8:53:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They were captured from Italian forces in Somalia and Ethiopia and the Brits sent them to Australia. The work was done at the Lithgow arsenal. Ian said he will be having a report on them on his website sometime in tnhe future.
I just finished reading (slowly, LOL) an article in the Dutch magazine SAM WAPENMAGAZINE in which they talked about the .303 Breda LMGs and even had photos of them in use with KNIL troops.
NebrHogger
Posted - 07/31/2004 : 12:50:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first question that comes to mind is the issue of clips. I'd very much like to see a pic of a Carcano so converted. SW
DocAV
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 4:53:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to the Italian rifle and LMG suypply to the Dutch: 10,000 Carcano rifles and carbines were supplied by the British via Australia in late 1941 after the collapse of AOI (Italian East Africa);These were in 6,5 Italian Calibre. I have a Indonesian re-stocked TERNI Long M91, using a handmade copy of the Dutch M95 Rifle stock, and still in 6,5 calibre.
The Documentation says (Australian External Affairs files dealing with Military Aid to KNIL) that the rifles simply transited Australia on their way to Batavia, and that the Italian Ammunition was supplied as well.
As to the Breda M1930 LMG, I have only come to the knowledge that these were supplied as well from AOI Captures, and probably North Africa as well.(The Dutch Web Page notes them as KNIL Weapons, but omits some of the Vickers suppled in .303 from the USA ( at the same time as the Johnson First delivery)
There was also mention( in this documentation) of the request by the Dutch Gov't in Exile (in Britain) for a complete factory from Australia to produce .303 Ammo, obviously for the KNIL Airforce and those weapons already in .303 ( the American Sourced Vickers) in NI.This was overtaken by the events of 1941, and the scarcity of cartridge machinery from Australia at the time.
Regarding Lithgow's involvement, the Aussie conversion of the M95(Dutch Mannlicher) Long Rifles to .303 is well documented (Base Ordnance Workshops in Sydney did the disassembly and re-assembly, and Lithgow did the boring re-rifling and re-chambering). These rifles were Lost at sea Nov-December 1941 ( Possible Japanese Submarine Action prior to Dec. 7th)
As to the "conversion" of the Carcanos and Breda guns, I would be of the opinion that Maybe some "prototype" work was done, but the difficulty in converting a "rimless" gun to a "Rimmed "Gun would be,
at that period of the War, an insurmountable obstacle for an already overworked SAF Lithgow...as was seen, the workload was already such that the Dutch Mannlichers were " contracted out" and only the barrel work was done at Lithgow.
The technical difficulty to convert the Breda, from a (relatively) Low Powered 6,5 Carcano cartridge, to the much more powerful .303 is in the realms of fantasy. The very nature of the hesitation Lock system used by the Breda gave difficulties of case separation and cook-offs with the 6,5 cartridge...imagine the disaster with a much more potent .303 round...also the technical problems of designing a completely new magazine with a large curve to accomodate the large diameter rim of the .303. Not for nothing the normal Italian LMG team carried FOUR (yes FOUR) spare barrels per gun into battle (Photos exist of Nth. African combat of Gun No.2 men carrying a back board with the four spare barrels... for cooling and the everpresent
ruptured case problem, due to (a) gritty chambers...the Breda used a Oil-squirt chamber lubrication and (b) the "unlocked" hesitation Lock, which allowed the chamber to open before the pressures had decreased sufficiently to allow the case body to "float" free and be extracted easily.(c) barreels also overheated easily, despite the fins, and this produced dangerous "cook-offs", usually before the bolt reached battery ( premature ignition).
Another thing is that there is very Little (NO) indication that the Breda guns were ever used by anybody in Indonesia, either during the Japanese Invasion, or by the INA ( the Indonesian Puppet army under the occupation,) or during the "Political Actions" (Post WW-II War of Independance.) None have shown up in Indonesia since 1949 either.They may still be in store at Bandoeng or Soerabaya, or just have been melted down as so much scrap metal.
On the other hand, the Japanese used widely and appreciated the Short KNIL Model Madsen LMG, in 6,5 Dutch, and these were widely re-issued to Japanese troops as far afield as the Solomons, along with re-labelled Dutch Ammo ( I have a complete 500 round Dutch Tin, with Japanese script on one side, Dutch on the other.)
Another mystery coming out of the back-rooms of Lithgow.
Krag
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 08:37:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian has the info on an updated bulletin: http://www.skennerton.com/bb.html
