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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I've been in a WW2 gun binge recently and have some questions I cant seem to find answers to.

1941-1943 The Soviet Union was on the defensive and this is when their snipers played the largest role, correct? What was the most common version of the mosin nagant 91/30 sniper rifle during this time?

Also, was the side mount PEM scope really rare during the war and did the scope sit directly above the barrel or was it to the side?

Thanks for the help
 

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I suppose in the early 1940s the most common sniper variant was a top mount Tula 91/30 PE or PEM. Exact production totals are hard to come by but before the Finnish Winter war in 1939 the Soviets had over 50,000 sniper rifles which of course inculuded some side rail PEMs as the profuction was started in 1938. In the beginning of 1940 the sniper variant of the SVT-40 was chosen to be the main sniper rifle of the Red Army and the production of the bolt action sniper rifles was somewhat halted. Therefore I think the production totals were way below 100,000 rifles. As the scoped SVT-40 rifle proved to be inferior to the 91/30 rifles an order was given to start the side rail production again. Izhevsk made a small patch of these until the 91/30 PU was ready to be produced in mass scale.

The side rail 91/30 PEM has the scope sitting right above the receiver.
 

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CH hits the nail on the head. I only add that all production of sniper rifles model Mosin Nagant (Three-Line 1891/30) were ordered stopped as the they were to be replaced by the SVT-40 sniper rifle. So the predominate sniper rifle of the day was still the Mosin Nagant and as CH says most likely the top mount PEM. But the SVT would have been pretty close as they made 53,000 of those in 3 years of 1940, 1941 and 1942. There was no Mosin Nagant sniper rifle production in 1941 of official mass production. It only began again in the late summer/fall of 1942 with the newly designed PU scope borrowed from the SVT and the m/42 mount. See the sniper rifle section at www.mosinnagant.net our parent site for more info.
 

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Instead of starting a new thread, I'm going to pop in and tag along on this one as it's related to the early PU snipers. A few years ago I bought a refurbished '43 PU from Coles. The rifle was advertised as:

#3 P.U. 1943 RK 84XX, all matching #’s, forced floorplate, mirror excellent bore, several rebuild cartouches. Mount is electric penciled to rifle & scope. SVT 40 scope, Dated 1942, scope is fogged, should make a good shooter. Scope has rebuild cartouche. Overall condition: Excellent condition (90%) NOTE: Scope is fogged. Shooter grade.

My question is; if the PU used the SVT scope, are there any differences at all between the SVT and PU scopes (other than date of manufacture) and why would one need to specify it as from an SVT? If I understand correctly, the electro-pencil numbers are from when it was refurbished (the mount is ep'd to the rifle and scope but rifle does not have a scope or mount s/n). Early '43 rifles are known to have used SVT scopes, so were these taken from an SVT that was no longer serviceable or pulled from a production line parts bin?
 

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SVT type scopes could have been on a rifle originally or one could be added at refurb. They fit, they were useable and they had them in stock. Why waste a perfectly good scope. The Soviets had tooled up to make the SVT type scopes and they continued to make them for the PU. IIRC I have seen a few SVT type scopes dated 1944, but certainly many dated 1943. Not much difference in the PU and SVT type scopes except the CB marking DaWoof mentions. Also, the PU was just a little easier to make due to single tube size.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
From http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper section/snipertext1.asp

It is not unusual to see some SVT scopes used in a PU sniper mount. The quantity of SVT scopes on hand at the close of production was considerable and these scopes being useable in the new PU mount were fitted until existing supplies were exhausted. These scopes are often the 1942 and 1943 dated examples, early 1943 being the last year of SVT scope production.
 

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I have a 1943 Izhevsk PU real sniper with a matching base and scope and its has an SVT 40 scope but its dated 1944 made at Kazan Optics Plant so if SVT 40 scope production ended in 1943 how is this possible?
From http://www.mosinnagant.net/sniper section/snipertext1.asp

It is not unusual to see some SVT scopes used in a PU sniper mount. The quantity of SVT scopes on hand at the close of production was considerable and these scopes being useable in the new PU mount were fitted until existing supplies were exhausted. These scopes are often the 1942 and 1943 dated examples, early 1943 being the last year of SVT scope production.
 

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CH hits the nail on the head. I only add that all production of sniper rifles model Mosin Nagant (Three-Line 1891/30) were ordered stopped as the they were to be replaced by the SVT-40 sniper rifle. So the predominate sniper rifle of the day was still the Mosin Nagant and as CH says most likely the top mount PEM. But the SVT would have been pretty close as they made 53,000 of those in 3 years of 1940, 1941 and 1942. There was no Mosin Nagant sniper rifle production in 1941 of official mass production. It only began again in the late summer/fall of 1942 with the newly designed PU scope borrowed from the SVT and the m/42 mount. See the sniper rifle section at www.mosinnagant.net our parent site for more info.
Vic & Antti,
Any estimate on how many SVT sniper rifles are still around and are there any left in lots for import?
Flakshield
 

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I have a 1943 Izhevsk PU real sniper with a matching base and scope and its has an SVT 40 scope but its dated 1944 made at Kazan Optics Plant so if SVT 40 scope production ended in 1943 how is this possible?
It is an old typo that needs to be corrected. 1944 is the latest date known now of the SVT style scope made specifically for use on the PU.
 

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So is my scope a rare 1944 model and about how many SVT 40 scopes were build in 1944! And are these 1944 scopes that are made specifically for use on the PU any different from standard SVT 40 scopes?
It is an old typo that needs to be corrected. 1944 is the latest date known now of the SVT style scope made specifically for use on the PU.
 

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Instead of starting a new thread, I'm going to pop in and tag along on this one as it's related to the early PU snipers. A few years ago I bought a refurbished '43 PU from Coles. The rifle was advertised as:

#3 P.U. 1943 RK 84XX, all matching #’s, forced floorplate, mirror excellent bore, several rebuild cartouches. Mount is electric penciled to rifle & scope. SVT 40 scope, Dated 1942, scope is fogged, should make a good shooter. Scope has rebuild cartouche. Overall condition: Excellent condition (90%) NOTE: Scope is fogged. Shooter grade.

My question is; if the PU used the SVT scope, are there any differences at all between the SVT and PU scopes (other than date of manufacture) and why would one need to specify it as from an SVT? If I understand correctly, the electro-pencil numbers are from when it was refurbished (the mount is ep'd to the rifle and scope but rifle does not have a scope or mount s/n). Early '43 rifles are known to have used SVT scopes, so were these taken from an SVT that was no longer serviceable or pulled from a production line parts bin?

rsc,
Your rifle bear a not common prefix. Some of the PU rifles with this prefix were reissued by the poles in post war years. Also I suppose these rifles were made early- mid '43 because the scope number shown the transition between the A and B prefix of the Progress scopes.
Can you add the Serial number to the database? :)


As said above the SVT style scopes were made up to 1944 by KOMZ and Factory 297.
These post '42 SVt style scopes were calibrated for the Mosin Nagant rifle and marked with the " CB " mark on the turret; But, for the old sayng " the exception that confirm the rule" few example no CB marked were observed..
Factory 297 used 3 different marks on their scopes.

kind regards.
 

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The rifle s/n is rk8487 (r looks like an upside down L ) and the scope number is 75994 dated 1942 and has a rebuild mark of a boxed X with P. to the right.

This rifle doesn't have the prolific proof marks that my ex-sniper does or that of other similar snipers I've seen.




 

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The rifle s/n is rk8487 (r looks like an upside down L ) and the scope number is 75994 dated 1942 and has a rebuild mark of a boxed X with P. to the right.

This rifle doesn't have the prolific proof marks that my ex-sniper does or that of other similar snipers I've seen.




The rifle was made in 1943 at Izhevsk factory and I do not see scope number stamped on the barrel. It might be Century made reproduction.
 
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