I was toying with the idea of making a sticky for dust covers. I have a print out of a thread from the old board that span 2003 to 2005 with a deep dicussion of the dust covers and the general serial numbers of when they may have been dropped from issue. I can sit down and run through it and make a series by series chart of known/suspected dust cover issue and nonissue serial ranges. Would that be of any interest to the moderators for a sticky?
Dust covers
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Well, as I said in another thread, I have been gone for about a year and hadn't read every thing on the new forum. The first link was the one I had printed and was going to use to make a basic list. Thanks for posting all those links and I won't waste my time adding to it. Thanks again.
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Those were on the first few pages. I had moved them over when we first moved. Problem is nobody knows where the info is. I think a concise one stop post as you described would be a good addition to the board. We also need a page that id's arsenal and series marks so the new guys can know what they have when asking questions. The info is there by going through the links page but it would helpful if it was all right here.
None of your business.
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It could look something like this. I used not only thread from the forum, but check all the books I have and went through the Banzai CD's to bring this as close as I could get it. Anyone who has any other more information/corrections or ideas, please feel free to post it and I'll edit it for say a week and then get a final copy. And if anyone knows how to cut and paste both the series symbol and arsenal symbol or if it can even be done, let me know how. Or if you have a fotnote which needs to be added.
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The list below gives a basic idea as to what is known about the issue of the chamber dust covers for the Ariaska type 99 short rifles. As the japanese started to conserve on metals late in the war, they stopped the issue of dust covers. Just because a rifle has the machined groves in the reciever doesn't mean it was issued with the cover. Due to the lose of Japanese records late in the war, there is no written record of when they started to omit the cover. That leaves the collector wondering where in a given series the omittions started. It is the opinion of forum members here that if the groves show no sign of wear from a cover slidding in the grove, it was probably not issued with one. That is another reason why it is inportant to fill out the data sheets from the Banzai website (linked in a sticky above) and send them to the address on the sheet. The only way to narrow down when dust covers stopped being issued is to continue to find the highest serial number in series thought to be the ones where some had covers and some did not. this is by no means meant to be the end all as far as what might be the real serialed end of the dust cover.
Series (none) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 1 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 2 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 3 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 4 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 4 (symbol) Izawa (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 5 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Highest known to have matching cover 70,635
Series 6 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) One possible known, waiting for authenication
Series 7 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 8 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 9 (symbol) Izawa (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 9 (symbol) Howa (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 10 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 11 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers*
Series 12 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers**
Series 20 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 21 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 22 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 23 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 24 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Highest known matching cover 22,529***
Series 25 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 27 (symbol) Juki Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 30 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (Symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 31 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 32 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) Highest known matching cover in 91K range
Series 33 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 34 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 35 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 37 (symbol) Juki Kogyo (symbol) Highest known matching cover 4,158
Series 40 (symbol) Jinsen (symbol) Highest known matching cover 9,446
Series 45 (symbol) Mukden (symbol) None known issued with covers
* Series 11 Nagoya stopped machine the groves into the recievers for dust covers,
The highest serial number with groves known is 90,206 and the lowest
serial number without groves is 42,361.
** Series 12 Nagoya didn't machine groves for the covers in this short run series.
*** Series 23 Kokura one in 99K range, trying to contact peron who reported it to
authenicate.
____________________________________________________________________________
The list below gives a basic idea as to what is known about the issue of the chamber dust covers for the Ariaska type 99 short rifles. As the japanese started to conserve on metals late in the war, they stopped the issue of dust covers. Just because a rifle has the machined groves in the reciever doesn't mean it was issued with the cover. Due to the lose of Japanese records late in the war, there is no written record of when they started to omit the cover. That leaves the collector wondering where in a given series the omittions started. It is the opinion of forum members here that if the groves show no sign of wear from a cover slidding in the grove, it was probably not issued with one. That is another reason why it is inportant to fill out the data sheets from the Banzai website (linked in a sticky above) and send them to the address on the sheet. The only way to narrow down when dust covers stopped being issued is to continue to find the highest serial number in series thought to be the ones where some had covers and some did not. this is by no means meant to be the end all as far as what might be the real serialed end of the dust cover.
Series (none) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 1 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 2 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 3 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 4 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 4 (symbol) Izawa (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 5 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) Highest known to have matching cover 70,635
Series 6 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) One possible known, waiting for authenication
Series 7 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 8 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 9 (symbol) Izawa (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 9 (symbol) Howa (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 10 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 11 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers*
Series 12 (symbol) Nagoya (symbol) None known issued with covers**
Series 20 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 21 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 22 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 23 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 24 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) Highest known matching cover 22,529***
Series 25 (symbol) Kokura (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 27 (symbol) Juki Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 30 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (Symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 31 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) Covers issued on complete series
Series 32 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) Highest known matching cover in 91K range
Series 33 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 34 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 35 (symbol) Toyo Kogyo (symbol) None known issued with covers
Series 37 (symbol) Juki Kogyo (symbol) Highest known matching cover 4,158
Series 40 (symbol) Jinsen (symbol) Highest known matching cover 9,446
Series 45 (symbol) Mukden (symbol) None known issued with covers
* Series 11 Nagoya stopped machine the groves into the recievers for dust covers,
The highest serial number with groves known is 90,206 and the lowest
serial number without groves is 42,361.
** Series 12 Nagoya didn't machine groves for the covers in this short run series.
*** Series 23 Kokura one in 99K range, trying to contact peron who reported it to
authenicate.
Thanks, hardest part was correcting all my spelling errors, lol. I welcome everyones input on any changes that can make it better.
I only have one with the matching dust cover, a series 23 with all the bells and whistles with struck mum.
I only have one with the matching dust cover, a series 23 with all the bells and whistles with struck mum.
OK, what is the serial number in the thousand range and I'll edit the list. I listed the 37 with none as there was no where I could find a known one.
Good question John, others will be able to answer that question better than I can. But all of them I have seen has a Kanji mark before the numbers, as for what Kanji mark goes with what arsenal is something I'm not clear on either.
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Any dustcover with numbers and no proofs is highly suspect, but look again and look closely. The proofs are small japanese characters and if not perfectly struck are easy to over look. As far as your list goes navybuff, it is a great idea. but I have some comments. In Nagoya I have seen 2 6th series guns with matched DC, 1 was at a local show long before I was taking written notes, so I don't have a number,as I also didn't have the cash (grinds teeth) And I have seen a rifle in the 57k of the 6th. I don't like how in kokura you have a high for the 23rd series and a high for the 24th. I believe as your number pretty much indicates that the entire 23rd series was issued with DCs. My noted high on Kokura is #104 in the 24th. I am not saying that there were none higher, but 99k is a really tough one to agree with. At this point someone is screaming about my hipocracy about saying I have a higher number here, but that high is baloney, and I agree it is. 99k of the 24th is a pretty advanced number in kokuras transition guns, about 20k before change to last ditch. In all other manufacturers the dropping of the DC apparently happened at least a full series before change to last ditch. This wouldn't be the first time I got flak on my number in the 6th, and I have every intention of focusing on the rifle next time I am near it and take pics (I know where it is) and I suggest whom ever has the 99k 24th really take a good look and possibly post pics. In the mean time as we don't want the possibility of some one turning down a rifle because they may think this chart is law, it should be stated that "some examples seen, no deffinitive number" implies that there are possibly some examples but need more info. I already mentioned above that this is a great idea, and I think we should have a decent FAQ or basic info section in the stickies. To be honest I never looked, I came here with a knowledge base, but I am sur I have heard others direct newbies to other pages for examples of this and that. Some of those pages are practically dead and floating in cyberspace. If we are the premier japanese rifle board we should have the info here, and able to be updated.
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I think this is a great undertaking, and one well worthy of the research..I have thoughts it may be a little too late in happening,but its still a good idea try.Dust covers are the worst mixed and matched items out there worse than bolts andwith so little as yet understood about the exact meanings/assocations of the various kanji proofs..its going to take lots of research and hard work to sort out.lots of guys are trying to find a D/C for their old rifles without one, the odds of finding the exact one that was on it originally are extremely minute, so they find one with the correct numbers and put it on there and instantly that undermines the research, the next owner or someone that see it reports TJK37 #12345 as having a matching d/C with the proof mark of the 6th series kanji.If you follow what im saying..its going to take reports of thousands,maybe 10s of thousands of D/Cwith matching numbers and their Kanji proofs to get a data base thats really in anyway reliable ,even for deciding what rifle actually had D/C to begin with .1 or 2 in a series doesnt prove they had them originally, not even if the numbers match,intil enough is known about the proofing to say which are truely correct.Not to throw cold water on what is a worthwhile undertaking,just pointing out how a table thats not accurate posted too soon could be detrimental rather than benificial,and maybe suggesting a posting or sticky for the D/C info might be a idea.the general info on the early stuff is pretty safe,however the later series that no one really agrees on ,need more research.Before the guy with 24th series 99,999 spots the posting that they had them for the whole 99K and finds a 999 D/C to stick on there creating an untrue precidence.JMHO
Everything you say makes perfect sence to me Dave. I figured and planned on this to be an on going project. If I had access to all the data sheets turned in over the years to Trey and those before him it would help. The sheets may have only ask if the cover was matching and not what Kanji it had. But if lets say 3 different sheets came in with matching covers reported in the 10,000-20,000K range in series 6, then that would give a good idea that it is a good beat this is a number to give as a veriable. And if in fact that happends then the three could be contacted (if they signed their names) and the Kanji research could go from there. I have never meet Trey, but didn't email some with him a few years back ofering to help him and Shannon and somewhere in on my PC I have some Exell spread sheets I world on for it and don't even remember know what part it was for. Hmmmmm, guess I need to do some searching here in my own back yard and see what I have. Would it be stupid to ask for members to email a Kanji drawing on all their matching dust covers along with series and serial number? As I said, I'm open to any suggestion any one wants to throw at me (on this subject I mean, lol).
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