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Dust Covers

Topic:



Topic author: Liberty
Subject: Dust Covers
Posted on: 08/04/2006 9:07:32 PM
Message:
Is there a difference in the dust covers for the Type99 and Type38 rifles?

Replies:

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/05/2006 12:31:29 AM
Message:
99 is a tad shorter, believe a 99 will fit a 38, but 38 will not fit a 99. Like the old '*****' in "Outlaw Jose Wales" 'I once knew those things, but I forgot!'

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/05/2006 12:33:38 AM
Message:
Might add, early 38 covers had an 'interior platform' near the back which was omitted later in production. Have seen this on one matching 99 long rifle. Best I could tell cover had not been renumbered.

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/05/2006 02:21:24 AM
Message:
Speaking of dust covers, was in a sporting goods store yesterday and happened to pick up a copy of this month's Gun List as there was a feature article on collecting Ariska rifles, so naturally I started perusing the article. Instantly got annoyed upon reading the author's comments about dust covers being tossed by Japanese soldiers as "they rattled a lot" and so many Japanese rifles found on the market today are missing their dust covers. And so, once again the myth & misinformation gets repeated, and likely several hundred (or thousand) readers now believe the old saw of how dust covers were dumped because of all the noise they made in combat. I think its never going to stop...Some magazine article 500 years from now discussing how wars used to be fought with shoulder arms is gonna tell their readers that Japan lost WWII because their soldiers got shot because their rifles rattled and gave them away! Very annoying to see in print again, that and some erroneous statements about zeroes preceding rifle serial numbers to me make the article almost worthless.

Reply author: longhorn789
Replied on: 08/05/2006 02:34:42 AM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by hetai
Speaking of dust covers, was in a sporting goods store yesterday and happened to pick up a copy of this month's Gun List as there was a feature article on collecting Ariska rifles, so naturally I started perusing the article. Instantly got annoyed upon reading the author's comments about dust covers being tossed by Japanese soldiers as "they rattled a lot" and so many Japanese rifles found on the market today are missing their dust covers. And so, once again the myth & misinformation gets repeated, and likely several hundred (or thousand) readers now believe the old saw of how dust covers were dumped because of all the noise they made in combat. I think its never going to stop...Some magazine article 500 years from now discussing how wars used to be fought with shoulder arms is gonna tell their readers that Japan lost WWII because their soldiers got shot because their rifles rattled and gave them away! Very annoying to see in print again, that and some erroneous statements about zeroes preceding rifle serial numbers to me make the article almost worthless.
Well I am new to Arisakas..and that is exactly what I heard about the dust covers too?!?

As I was reading, I was hoping your post had a punchline where you were going to enlighten me about the TRUE reason these covers were missing...

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/05/2006 03:52:36 AM
Message:
I thought the article was pretty good, much better than what we've seen before. Of course there is the unsubstantiated "dust-cover rattle was why the soldiers threw them out" comment heard so often, but then again, there is no proof that Japanese soldiers "did not" throw away or at least packed away the dust covers because they were loud, or useless to begin with in the jungle, or both.
As a guide for novice collectors, what to look for in Arisakas at gun shows, the article was concise and "fairly" accurate, which is a lot more than any other gun magazaine article ever printed about the subject in the past.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/05/2006 12:01:52 PM
Message:
I have seen a lot of Japanese combat camera footage, both video and still pictures. I have NEVER seen a Japanese rifle in them where the dust cover was not present.

Has anyone?

Frank

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/05/2006 12:31:52 PM
Message:
You are exactly correct. I have a large Pacific War video collection & have noted the same thing. The dust covers are always on the rifles in that footage where detail can be seen. Also, the rifle was the property of the emperor...What soldier would dare dump part of that rifle at his own whim? His NCO would have beat the sh-- out of him. The author of the aformentioned article simply spewed out the same old crap he read himself somewhere without bothering to check if his information was correct or even logical. 90% of the Ariskas in my collection have their original dust covers and none of them "rattle". There were other errors in the article too, and I would not recommend it as a source of information to any beginning Japanese rifle collector.

Reply author: Mike
Replied on: 08/05/2006 3:29:42 PM
Message:
One thing about the films is that most of them are from early periods when they were winning and had lots of assets.
You don't see them from heavy extended combat like Guadalanal or other islands later in the war. If anybody was filming, they did not survive.
I saw a pickup from Tarawa in a vet's house the other day had no cover and a mismatched bolt. He picked it up from a corpse. I have known him all my life.
Another vet I know has a as-issued 99 with matching cover. From Okinawa, I believe. He did remark that he had heard these rattle in the dark a time or two. He was unaware of any internet discussions, just had his memory.
Things deteriated significantly for IJ troops. As did the quality and dedication of them as time went on. Fanatics get used up pretty fast and are not easily replaced.
This is illustrated by the increase in POW numbers as the war played out.
Like mum grinding, there will never be a definitive answer, but people will continue to wrangle over it.



Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/05/2006 3:46:31 PM
Message:
My Dad had a dust cover story. He was out souvineer hunting on Saipan after the island was "secured". As he approached a cave (armed with a hunting knife) he heard the distinctive rattle of a dust cover as a round was chambered. He said that he ran for his life, fully expecting to be shot in the back. I guess the dust cover saved two lives that day! BTW, he did pack a .45 after that!
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10440&d=1191880112
Download Attachment:
64.15 KB

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/05/2006 4:56:18 PM
Message:
Two interesting vet stories. One wonders why these soldiers didn't dump their dust covers if rattling is supposed to be the reason why they were discarded? One wonders too why these soldiers didn't already have a round chambered & just have the safety on? I guess there's no firm answer, but to continually see the rattling story in articles & on shows like the History Channel stated as fact is pretty annoying, and begs the question if rumors are not just being regurgitated time & time again without factual evidence or research.

Reply author: Bushido101
Replied on: 08/05/2006 5:23:45 PM
Message:
I still wonder about dust cover rattle. I have shook all of my rifles several times and I only have a couple of rifles the covers are just slightly loose and they dont make enough noise to be heard at any distance, I still think most of the rifles lost their covers when American service personel were getting of the ships and their bolts were returned to them before leaving the ships and the covers were either left behind or discarded by the troops that didnt want them and didn't give it a thought about getting rid of the cover or putting it back on

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/05/2006 6:06:48 PM
Message:
You are exactly correct-mine make no noise whatsoever either. Remember too, Japanese rifles were almost worthless for years on the surplus market. People were butchering them for sporters and had no use for a dust cover even it did survive the trip back to the States in the first place. Over the years bolts got swapped-out, dust covers lost or bent & discarded, guns taken apart & parts mixed up with other Arisakas, on & on. Plus, would a soldier dump part of a rifle belonging to his God-emperor? I wonder. I think dust covers may have at times been stowed in packs or bread bags and lost later, I seriously doubt if they were dumped because they supposedly rattled.

Reply author: Bill In Indiana
Replied on: 08/05/2006 6:08:39 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by hetai
The author of the aformentioned article simply spewed out the same old crap he read himself somewhere without bothering to check if his information was correct or even logical. 90% of the Ariskas in my collection....
Maybe in your experience, you have found that you have no dust covers that rattle. But obviously, some people have experienced the "Rattle"

For instance... The very first Japanese rifle I purchased came home with a man who often told the story about how he heard a rattle coming at him in the dark...a rattle he later determined was from the dustcover as the very young Japanese soldier ran at him. It (the rattle)was not from turning the bolt, but was simply from a slightly loose fit. That rattle cost the soldier his life and saved the life of the man I got the rifle from. The rifle is a matching 31st series (dust cover matches)and if I shake it, there is a slight rattle from the cover.

That said....I have seen rifles that had better fitting dustcovers than others. Maybe this is a case of some rattling more than others, and thus some who have only seen "non rattlers" think the rattle story is more BS than those who have heard "rattlers".

quote: Originally posted by hetai
There were other errors in the article too, and I...
The author of the article is a member of this board, and it might help educate him, and others if you point out the other mistakes for everyone. But as far as I am concerned, the dust cover rattle is a debateable point, where you and the author (and me) disagree. Being it is and not a proven fact either way, it can hardly be called a mistake.

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/05/2006 6:27:17 PM
Message:
Well, I think I did point out what I viewed as mistakes in some of the posts above. All opinions are open to review & discussion on this board, I believe that's what it's about. Opinion seesm to be about evenly divided. Some dust covers probably do rattle, what I question is the often repeated story that Japanese soldiers dumped their dust covers because of supposed rattling, not that some vets may have heard a dust cover rattle. As I pointed out, rifles were Imperial property and were so marked by the crysanthemum on the reciever. Japanese soldiers revered thier emperor from all I've read, so I continue to question wether a soldier would have been allowed to trash a piece of the emperor's property. Maybe someone out there knows or has an official reference to dumping dust covers because of noise from Japanese war-time documents, not conjecture or because it's been repeated so many times.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/05/2006 6:47:34 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by hetai
One wonders too why these soldiers didn't already have a round chambered & just have the safety on?
Maybe they were like me. The only weapon I have that stays loaded is my Winchester Defender 12 Gauge shotgun. Still, I never have a round in the pipe. Not only is it a safety thing but there is nothing quite as scary as the sound of a shotgun chambering a round(00 Buck shot BTW). Maybe the soldier my Dad came up on had the same idea.
I'm beginning to think that, just maybe, the Japanese might have pocketed their dust covers when they knew heavy action was about to take place.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/05/2006 6:56:08 PM
Message:
On the other hand, there is the T-99 my Dad picked up on Okinawa - dust cover intact!


Reply author: christian rifle
Replied on: 08/05/2006 7:28:28 PM
Message:
I agree with the idea that there is no definite answer.
The rifles we love and their dustcovers are all mass produced things made to generous tolerances, NOT plus or minus one one hundred thousandth of an inch. So some are gonna rattle, some aint.

Also whoever on this board wrote the Gunlist article, congratulations on getting it in print.


Reply author: CW
Replied on: 08/05/2006 7:49:31 PM
Message:
I doubt that they tossed the dust cover. If they did, they'd be rare as hen's teeth. I aslo wonder about the rattle. I would think a sling and belt equipment would make more noise than a slightly loose DC.

Reply author: Mike
Replied on: 08/05/2006 10:20:10 PM
Message:
My friend's father got into a trench behind a bunker just as a IJ ran out-the kid raised up to fire and realized his safety was engaged. He had the most unbelieveable look on his face as he tried to disengage it.

I can say the same about a dumb NVA who was poking around in some bushes and failed to keep his weapon pointed where he was looking.

You guys who keep up denying something you have no 1st hand knowledge of even in light of testimonial evidence need to lighten up. On all my rifles the rattle comes from knocking against the cover or working the action. Too many stories over too much time to have no basis.

If you have ever been a hunter or served in the field you would understand just how loud even a small noise can be.

It is childish and a waste of breath to continuously insist something never happened.

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 08/05/2006 11:21:52 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by Mike

It is childish and a waste of breath to continuously insist something never happened.
I would suggest that it is equally childish and a waste of breath, lacking first hand knowledge, to insist that it did happen.

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/06/2006 12:06:48 AM
Message:
I would bet my bottom dollar that some collector in the 50's or 60's started this rattling dust cover myth, and it's been repeated as gospel ever since. EVERY military rifle has it's little noises it makes. Sling hardware "tinks" against metal or wood. Leather creaks. Stocks bang against metal belt buckles or bayo scabbards. M1 Garands "ping" when the clip is expelled. Ultimately it's just my educated opinion, but I find it hard to believe that Japanese soldiers would dump a part of their rifle that they may well be expected to have on inspection or when on the move or march. It was the emperor's rifle after all, not theirs.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2006 02:45:33 AM
Message:
Japanese soldiers were human too, and in the heat of battle or wandering the jungles eating mud and clay for dinner days-on-end, everything goes. I've made reference to this before on other posts, but there is definite evidence written on war experience stories I've read that tells of less than professional handling of equipment by the soldiers, including throwing the WHOLE RIFLE out into some ravine while on the run. Other stuff were thrown out too, but according to one soldier's story the last thing NOBODY EVER threw away was the mess kit (that bulgy looking aluminum thing), and not your lovely Emperor's dust cover. Now, I have not read of any specific mentions of DCs being thrown out, but I sure believe it could have happened in the battle zone, especially late in the war when things were getting very desperate, and who gave a goddamn about some stinkin' piece of metal which is pretty much useless anyways in the jungle environment (wonder why they stopped making dust covers in the arsenals ?). The last thing a sergeant would wan't is a beat up soldier who will not be 100% battle functionable, just because he loses a dust cover. Maybe back in the barracks, he'd get slapped around till dawn, but most likely not in the heated battle zone.
Yes, the crazy spritualism in those days would make a soldier die too easily "for the emperor", and of course no soldier in his right mind would intentinally damage or lose his equipment in a non-combat non-adrenaline packed environment, but mixing that up to a know-it-all comment summing up to "Oh, I know as a fact that a Japanese soldier have never ever showed any disrepect for his equipment which was owned by the Emperor", is a generalisation that neglects actual combat occurances.

Reply author: neatguns
Replied on: 08/06/2006 10:30:19 AM
Message:
Well, I would have to admit to being the author of the Gun list article that was mentioned in this discussion. Obviously there is not a consensus as to the reason so many dust covers are missing. What would you have me say about it? No mention of dust covers at all? Or, spend 250 words in a 1000 word column to discuss the various possibilities that might explain the missing covers. Or better yet, have no column at all, lest there be a possible mistake about a minor point. The same problem arises when discussing the ground MUMs. Who's orders, when and why???
I just know from personal experience that only about 1 in 10 Arisakas that pass through my business have the dust cover. And only about a third with the cover have one that matches. So they were removed, or lost, for some reason.
I signed on with Gun List to write the Pieces of History column almost two years ago. The focus of the coulmns is to highlight some of the interesting historical arms out there and bring a bit of knowledge to the general readership. Most readers of any general gun magazine have little or no knowledge or interest in Arisakas or any other particular gun. I'm just trying to spark that early interest that might grow a reader into an obsessed collector. Once someone becomes a collector or student of a particular design or a nations' arms then the books written by the experts or internet sites such as this are the best outlet for that information.
My knowledge of military firearms comes from almost 20 years of being a licensed dealer that specializes in collectible guns. I have basic, entry level knowledge about Arisakas, Enfields, Mausers, Carcanos, Lebels, Lugers, Nagants, Springfields, SKS, Webleys............etc. I don't claim to be an expert in any field. Much of the specific information I use comes from the experts books or sites like Gun Boards.

Reply author: Guntojim
Replied on: 08/06/2006 12:22:20 PM
Message:
Since there are members of this board who have contacts in Japan or who know of a former member of the IJA in this country, why not just ask them if they have any info on this subject? Or has this been done on a former post and I missed it? Jim

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2006 12:55:01 PM
Message:
Francis, I just found this photo from a disc full of IJA surrender photos, but noticed the pile of T-38s had mostly missing dust covers.
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10441&d=1191880136
Download Attachment:
274.46 KB

Neatguns, I like your articles on Gun List, actually your article is the first and usually the only one I read on the Gun List. The past articles where you talk about the ins and outs of gunshows and some of the humor stories in them were quite entertaining, please write up more of that stuff ! Your wife's article is pretty good too, and gives a warmth in them gun magazine articles.

Regarding your Arisaka article, most of the info is correct, and I think is a great introduction of the Arisaka to the general reader. The double 0 preceding the serial # may have gone through arsenal rebuild but specifically were stamped onto rifles that retired the military officially and were surplused into school military training programs. These would also have the Kanji character "Bun" stamped underneath the mum.
There was another article on Gun List sometime ago from another author who talked about Arisakas, but that was full of incorrect information, plus it was almost advocating the sporterizing of Arisakas, something that should be avoided at all costs from a vintage arms collector's viewpoint, in other words, that article stank.



Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/06/2006 12:59:34 PM
Message:
I'm a FIRM beliver that the Japanese soldier DID NOT discard the cover.

1. It was the Emperor's rifle and he was "God." You don't monkey with God's posessions, (unless you are Garfield.)

2. Most rifles that came back in the 80s from China, 90%, had dustcovers, maybe they did not rattle in China?

3. It's documented that on many ships G.I.'s had to remove bolts from their 'bring-back' rifles and toss them in a container. Ever removed a bolt with a DC and toss it into a basket? Seven times out of ten the cover will come off. If you've been with a bunch of hard-tails for 3-4 years and haven't been with the wife/girlfriend (or both) for that long you have one thing on your mindon deboarding ship, and it's not digging through a container of bolts to find a DC.

4. Over the years I've owned several rifles with mismatched bolts, but with a cover that matches the bolt, that cover stayed on.

5. And lastly, many low-life dealers removed the covers to sell seperately, just like the scumbags that removed the extra, matching mag, and firing pin from a bring-back Nambu rig to make a few extra dollars, before complete rigs had any exra value.

Japanese remove the covers? B.S.!



Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/06/2006 1:05:16 PM
Message:
That's a great disc Edokko & every collector should have it. I mentioned these photos before when this subject came up. Sure, you see the covers in the early war & propaganda films, but here they are being surrendered & where are the covers? Also in these photos you see a number of Japanese troops carrying M-1917s.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/06/2006 1:10:06 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1
I'm a FIRM beliver that the Japanese soldier DID NOT discard the cover.
Japanese remove the covers? B.S.!
Well, just look at that pile of Type 38s with no covers. No one but Japanese have handled these rifles right up to the moment this photo was taken!

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2006 1:40:45 PM
Message:
A-dogs, yup, you are the one who gave me the heads-up on that disc, and it's excellent !
One another thing about dust covers. Each and every dust cover I have on my rifles "rattle" or make that distinct sheet metal noise whenever I cycle the bolt, especially when pulling the bolt back, the DC makes that "clang" noise when the bolt hits the bolt stop. This would be an extra noise that a soldier would not care to have in combat, would have to tolerate if it was an essential piece of the rifle, but would be just an added nuisance if the existance of the DC itself was not that important.
Remembering documents I've read, the concept of the dust cover was hatched by Kijiro Nambu, when the Army Tech Dept was relooking at the T-30 design post Russo Japanese war. The T-30 had a fairly complex bolt design which were really not made to be field stripped to be cleaned, add that to the dust winds of fall to winter in the trenches of Northeast China and you had many failed rifles where the bolt parts got jammed with the fine sand, grit, dust and dirt build-up. In addressing these issues and to increase the general strength of the action, Nambu desgined the now all too famous T-38 action with the most strongest and simplest military bolt and receiver ever made, plus the dust cover to prevent grime to enter the action (originally implemented on the T-35). This is back in 1905.
Fast forward to late WW2 in the wet pacific jungles where most of the fierce fighting with the US forces were being held, the amount of dust and grime blowing in the wind is negligible compared to that of the fall/winter dry mainland China, the T-38 and/or T-99 bolt and receiver are easily stripped and cleaned in the field. What then would be the use of a dust cover, except being a "part" of an official issued rifle ? Moreover, think of the difference in speed of reinserting a bolt with or without the dust cover, try it with your rifle at home and feel the difference. Common sense says that this is the most nuisance piece of the Arisaka in a close combat situation (probably no problem in trench warfare). Hence I can almost see a situation where a CO would order his soldiers to detach the DC and keep it in his pack during combat duties. And when things got really hairy, some (not collectively, but some) soldier would just tear it off and chuck it out.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/06/2006 2:02:35 PM
Message:
Good points Edokko! I used to believe like Eloldefartuno, until I saw this CD. Sure enough, the dust covers are gone & no one but the Japanese could have removed them. And, these are T-38s - every T-38 was issued with a dust cover.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/06/2006 3:22:47 PM
Message:
Dear Edokko;

Many thanks for posting that photo. I have a poor copy of it and it is impossible, in the poor copy, to make out the particulars of the dust cover. On your copy I see a couple on top that do seem to have the dust cover removed. The lower ones seems to have them. Very interesting!

Thanks for posting this!

Frank

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/06/2006 3:35:51 PM
Message:
There are other photos on this CD that show the rifles being turned in and many are without the dust cover.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/06/2006 7:10:14 PM
Message:
Look at the early 99s in excellent condition that were common at shows 20-30 years ago. Obviously, never saw combat, pulled from storage in Japan after the war. Majority missing pods, many wings, some rods. Japanese had scrap drives right up till the war's end, cooking pots, every sort of scrap turned in. Same in U. S., I can remember collecing and stomping 'tin'cans in 44-45 for our scrap drives. Pods were removed from rifles on Imperial Headquarters orders, missing covers more than likely same. I'm not saying Japanese soldiers did not remove parts from their rifles, obviously this was done, BUT UNDER ORDERS.

What happens to the Sgt if the Lt. sees half the Sgt's squad with rifles without covers? You may think yur men are better off without dust covers, but CYA, my friends, CYA. Unless you have an order from above, things stay as they are!

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2006 7:27:17 PM
Message:
Well what if the Lt "told" his Sgt to have all the men remove the covers for combat ? Never know until I find some soldiers memoir or something about how collectively the DCs were removed, but no, there is no basis on claiming nobody touched anything on the rifle because it's owned by the Emperor God. Again the basics of making the grunt revere and take good care of the rifle as being the property of the Emperor was absolutely pounded in during training and at inspection (That was the idea on placing the mum on rifles in the first place. Notice no mums on pistols for NCOs and over), but in battlefield practicality, I am certain there were many improvising done.

Reply author: Liberty
Replied on: 08/06/2006 7:41:31 PM
Message:
Great responses guys, thanks.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/06/2006 7:42:51 PM
Message:
Sure, Lt could have told Sgt to tell Pvt. Okedokee to remove his cover, Can't argue that did not happen. But Pvt Okedokee did not remove the cover on his own, as long as he was still in a squad. Perhaps alone, headed out of India for Burma or ???. Who knows what he did, some discarded their rifles, so says history.

But still, the myth of the'rattling dust covers' is just that, same as pods being removed because enemy could hear the 'snap' when they were folded agianst the stock. (My mind's made up, so don't try to confuse me with the facts!)

And why were DCs discontinued, because they 'rattled", decision made they were not needed, or to save metal? Why were so many late, 9th-10th andn 69%+ of the 11th receivers machined for DCs, fabricated before 'leave off' decidion made? Might reinstate? or???

Guess if we knew it all you would know as much as me.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/06/2006 7:51:37 PM
Message:
What it sums up to, is, there is no absolute answer... just yet..
Dang it, more stuff to read and research. This Japanese military collecting hobby is getting to be too much. I think I should move on and start collecting bottle caps or milk bottle lids.

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/07/2006 10:31:30 AM
Message:
Edokko, if your'e referring to my posts, I NEVER said any such quote you attributed to me that I knew for sure Japanese soldiers didn't dump their dust covers! And you put quote marks around something that was NOT a quote from my post! I said I didn't think based on my reading that Japanese soldiers dumped their dust covers, and on collecting experience of how rumors about military rifles get started (Carcano rifles are junk, Japanese military equipment was of poor quality, etc., etc.). This dust cover being dumped story is still irresponsibly spread as FACT which it clearly isn't, and that was my main critisicm of the Gun List article:It presented conjecture as if it were established fact without any corraborating evidence. If you attend to put quote marks around something I am attributed as saying, please use only the exact words I used in my post.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/07/2006 12:04:06 PM
Message:
Gentlemen, gentlemen, it's esy to hit the wrong key, witness the trnsposed letters in much of my spelling (Grfield refers it to my IQ, but you hav to consider the source.) The best thing we can do is as Fred noted in the 1st Ed of MRoJ, this is not a quote. 'reexamine all that is currently believed.'

All we can hope to do is educate the guys writing the articles so instead of saying soldiers threw covers away because they rattled, say "Dust covers are missing from rifle for many reasons, there are several theories behind why this occurs, these include...." Same with mums, pods, mismatched scopes, etc.

I am one of those who LOVE to be proved wrong, I have my theories, ideas, but if you can show me a T-89 round is actually a T-88 then I've learned something.

As an example it is now belived by Fred and Vic that there were no 4x Kokura 99 snipers (last I heard.) However,I believe Kokura did experiment with 4x scopes at the very end of production as parts, unfinished rifles were shifted to Nagoya, witness only three scopes reported with the 'jagged mountain under a character' logo, one on Nagoya #73 with an unnumbered, Kokura proofed bolt, one on high # Kokura 99 sniper on Nagoya stock and 3rd with base removed so no identifing numbers. (Guess these could have been a first, short run Nagoya production, just thought of that. damn, another theory shot)BUT, if someone prooves me wrong then I've learned something new, and ITS A GOOD DAY WHEN YOU LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

As far as getting 'upsetwhen you are misquoted, it can be pointed out as "I didn't say that." (you idiot!) Speaking of idiots, has Garfield posted lately?

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/07/2006 6:52:59 PM
Message:
Hetai, never even thought of "quoting" you. You're like a beehive, don't wanna get too close.


Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/08/2006 12:51:02 PM
Message:
Well, we all have our ideas & opinions, obviously. I defend my opinions as vigorously as possible while remaining civil at all times. I 100% agree with your views on the impolite use of the term "Jap", and would be just as vociferous on your behalf should this topic come up again, and it most likely will. One of my closest friend is Japanese-American, whose father served in the 442nd RCT while at the same time others of his relatives were confined in internement camps. We walked the grounds of Manzanar together last year, an experience that would make anyone using the term "Jap" stop & pause.
Is the dust cover issue that big a deal anyway? No, but it irks me that this story is stated as fact all the time (mindlessly repeated in print & on documentaries) when in reality it's just one of many opinions.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/08/2006 3:18:16 PM
Message:
Hetai, OK you are being very civil about it and I need to in return, and I apologize if I made you irk along the way. But come to think of it, your opinion, and my opinion, are basically apples and oranges and is actually nothing to debate over. Your comments that most all the Japanese soldiers were not throwing away the dust covers, or chucking them out into the jungle foliage left and right, is correct, I am absolutely certain they did not do that. Of course I'm also sure some guy here and there may have thrown 'em out in the heat of the moment because they did not have a useful purpose in the jungle, and absolutely there may have been some orders from COs to detach and store the covers, but as a "collective action", no group of soldiers in his right mind would be purposefully "discarding" them, as in any army that has some level of discipline.
On the other hand my comments were meant to say, that not all Japanese soldiers were strict to their "emperor = god, T-38/T-99 = god's personal rifle" discipline to the end. And when push comes to shove, the hell with Hirohito's rifle and out it goes into the ravine, and hightailing it out on retreat is the most important thing on his head. A good many of them were disillusioned towards the end of the war when life in the jungle was not only a fight against the Allies, but moslty against hunger, disease, heat and idiotic orders from above. Some units had a great majority of the soldiers die due to above and not by fighting the Allies. And when these soldiers came back after the war, they started talking about their thoughts and feelings against the Japanese authorities (The Impal stories are most colorful). My dad heard these stories first hand, and add to that his humiliation of not graduating from Officers class due to the loss of war, has an immensely strong feelings against the then Japanese authority (and even now) and you-know-who who sat on the top of all that, and naturally, his history buff son is taking up some of that torch.

Reply author: hetai
Replied on: 08/08/2006 8:30:10 PM
Message:
Well said. I have read extensively about the Japanese Army's tribulations in Imphal, a horrendous end-game of misery, starvation, slow death & horrific weather in which Imperial discipline almost completely broke down. I think the idea of continuing to serve the God-emperor was totally cast aside, and these poor soldier-wretches would have traded their soul for a handful of rice and the emperor could have gone straight to Hell! Under these circumstances they were dumping the entire rifle in the river or in the jungle, let alone the dust cover! It was truly a horrible time-fratricide, cannibalism, mass suicide, drowning, butchery by strafing attacks, drowning in rain-swollen rivers, a hell even worse than what was suffered near the end of the Guadalcanal campaign.
Good defense of your point of view there's certainly no doubt about what happened to a lot those dust covers!

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/09/2006 3:50:55 PM
Message:
Hetai, let's shake hands at that.
One of thse days, will meet you at some gunshow and we'll slug it out with a beer contest. If I win you move back to PRK.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/09/2006 4:20:16 PM
Message:
Macarthur ordered the dust covers removed, drank some of the 'adult beverage' Okiedokee sent with the mortar and suddenly, like a bolt out of the blue, the Macarthur removal order was clear! 'Dougout Doug' had a collection of 38 million DCs when he died. "D.D's" survivors sold them all to the Yugo factory for raw material.

Damn, I wish DCs had never been installed on 'Ah-re-sakas!' Then we could figure out how to shoot pool with a rope!~

Reply author: Chuck Lamb
Replied on: 08/09/2006 4:53:43 PM
Message:
For all of us Rope Pool Shooters: Soak the rope in water, freeze for 24 hours, and then it will be good for pool for a few minutes!

Chuck.

Reply author: garfield
Replied on: 08/09/2006 5:20:14 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1
Macarthur ordered the dust covers removed, drank some of the 'adult beverage' Okiedokee sent with the mortar and suddenly, like a bolt out of the blue, the Macarthur removal order was clear! 'Dougout Doug' had a collection of 38 million DCs when he died. "D.D's" survivors sold them all to the Yugo factory for raw material.

Is that why all the Yugos rattle?

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 08/09/2006 5:42:17 PM
Message:
Ouch ! what if it falls off after the freeze treatment ?

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/09/2006 7:01:52 PM
Message:
Rattle is becaue welds did not 'take' over arsenal stamps and Walking Eagle say, 'Cool rope get Eagle thrown out of tepee, POed squaw.'

Does remind me of another one of the true (tis actually true, very true, unfortunately) stories. After our 40th HS reunion we decded to have a mini-reunion each year, Class of 55 grads still living in and around our old stomping-grounds in NW AL. I drove up from Tuscaloosa to plan with one of the 'co-eds', a former nurse that never married. I was widowed at the time. We planned the shin-dig, talked over the 50s, consumed much, as Walking Eagle would say, "Fire water" and I 'crashed' about 11PM. About 1:30 my bedroom door opened, "Are you awake?" "I am now." "I wasn't going to do this, but come on down to my room and lets scr*w." So I 'pitty-pat' down to her room, we start 'fore-play,' she sleeps with window open, about 30 degrees outside,, she grabs the lube from bedside table drawer, applies the 30 degree lube. - end of story!

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/09/2006 10:07:27 PM
Message:
Well, that was more than we needed to know about. Glad you can't post photos!


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 08/09/2006 10:15:17 PM
Message:
You're not like Paul Harvey? "And now for the rest of the story?"
Always figgured youse was a virgin! Have you slept with your Nagoya lately?

Reply author: christian rifle
Replied on: 08/09/2006 10:42:25 PM
Message:




quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1
Rattle is becaue welds did not 'take' over arsenal stamps and Walking Eagle say, 'Cool rope get Eagle thrown out of tepee, POed squaw.'
Does remind me of another one of the true (tis actually true, very true, unfortunately) stories. After our 40th HS reunion we decded to have a mini-reunion each year, Class of 55 grads still living in and around our old stomping-grounds in NW AL. I drove up from Tuscaloosa to plan with one of the 'co-eds', a former nurse that never married. I was widowed at the time. We planned the shin-dig, talked over the 50s, consumed much, as Walking Eagle would say, "Fire water" and I 'crashed' about 11PM. About 1:30 my bedroom door opened, "Are you awake?" "I am now." "I wasn't going to do this, but come on down to my room and lets scr*w." So I 'pitty-pat' down to her room, we start 'fore-play,' she sleeps with window open, about 30 degrees outside,, she grabs the lube from bedside table drawer, applies the 30 degree lube. - end of story!
Haaa ! Lmao !!
Way off topic.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 08/10/2006 01:02:33 AM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1
You're not like Paul Harvey? "And now for the rest of the story?"
Always figgured youse was a virgin! Have you slept with your Nagoya lately?
We've all seen the photo of you laying on a bed full of Arisakes with a grin on your face. You must have finished the cigarette already.
Was it good for them or just for you?

Reply author: HowdyDoody
Replied on: 08/10/2006 08:32:32 AM
Message:
I hope Josh man went to bed early last night.

jim

Reply author: christian rifle
Replied on: 08/10/2006 3:07:32 PM
Message:

[/quote]
We've all seen the photo of you laying on a bed full of Arisakes with a grin on your face. You must have finished the cigarette already.
Was it good for them or just for you?

[/quote]
Aw great. So your saying 'blood pitting' isnt the only thing we have to worry about ?
Eeewwww !

 
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