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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,

I bought a nice Finn M/N -91 it has a VKT barrel -1942 -from a pal, the bore looks clean (like NEW) but the more you scrub it the more dirty patches come out of it!

I shot 50 rounds(light ball) the patchs are still coming out black or green depending on what cleaner I'm using! I used about 3 ounces of Hoppes #9 and cleaned the bore with foaming bore twice!
I must have used about 40-50 patchs!

I read where sometimes, you have to shoot the heck out of it & clean when warm.
I did that & STILL no joy!

Any tips for me?

The rifle is really accurate, so mabe I should stop making a big deal about it.

My other question is this.
Will the rifle clean up faster using lead bullets or reloads with 308 or 311 bullets rather than Russian mil. surp?

Thanks for any help,
point6
 

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I like a clean patch as much as the next fellow but on some surplus rifles it will never happen. My advice is to get some Blue Wonder gel cleaner,follow the instructions and if then you can't get a clean patch live with it. My best shooting M39 is a 44 Sako with a shiney .310 bore that will not give you a clean patch even when shooting reloads.
 

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I'm having the same experience. I shot 21 rounds of Bulgarian Heavy Ball today and I've run around 75 patches through and used a ton of Hoppes. The more I scrub, the dirty they come out. The bore looks good and clean, but the patches are dirty.
 

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Been there, done that....

If you search the Enfield forum you can read the saga I had getting clean patches out of a two-groove No.4. I had somewhere between 10 and 20 runs using foaming bore cleaner before I got all the copper out of the barrel. I have also had a Mosin that took 12 goes and an M48A that took seven or eight. I used the Outer's Foaming Bore Cleaner and let it sit overnight on several occasions.

All I can suggest is keep at it and maybe shoot it some more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Fellows,

So, I'm not the only one with this problem!

I have some Blue Wonder cleaner, will give it a try! I like B W for matching bluing on various guns.

I read the Enfield post last night, saw it after my post was made.

If the Blue Wonder does not work I will try the household ammonia. I have read the reports about barrel frosting too, don't think I will let is sit over night , will read up on it some more.


UPDATE - just cleaned it again the first patch was a black mess from sitting over night with Hoppes #9 following patchs were only grey! It is wet down again, will try after work!

Best to all,
point6.
 

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Copper and lead will not come out with the current Hoppes formula--I dont care what the label says--it wont!....as much as it has been the "staple" for many years, the current formula will leave plenty of junk behind! Works on powder left behind and leaves a protective lube to prevent corrosion but that's about it, and with old military barrels and corrosive ammo you need to use different products. Remember when the formula "changed" in the late 60's/early 70's--most serious shooter bitched!

I use a couple of good product's "Shooter Choice" or "Butch's bore shine", it will remove all the lead and copper with a little elbow grease. To prove my point, use you Hoppes until you think your barrel is clean--then send down the pipe a nice damp patch with Shooters Choice or Butch's Bore Shine---it will come out UGLY!...Really Ugly!!!

And with the advent of better bore cleaners, more of that lead and copper will come out much better then the cleaners used in many of the world's military's from years gone by.

Give it a try

BAF
 

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Advanced Auto Parts Carb & Choke Cleaner [email protected]
Breaks up the carbon deposits that hold the copper fouling.
Spray liberally, brush, flush! Cheap and effective product!

Shooters Choice Bore Cleaner
Best product found to date. Follow carb cleaner with soaked patches, brush, flush with carb cleaner

Shooters Choice copper cleaner
Patch with soaked patch, let stand 1 hr, flush with carb cleaner
Won't eat your bore

Shooters Choice Extreme foaming cleaner
More potent than Bore Cleaner.
Spray until full, let soak 3 hrs, brush, flush with carb cleaner

Wipe Out Foaming Bore cleaner
For extreme cleaning.
Fill bore, let stand three days (preferably over heater vent), brush, flush. Repeat for three treatments

MolyFusion
Following extreme cleaning to pristine condition, treat with MolyFusion. Permanent bond with the metal. From then on, cleaning time is reduced by 2/3 as crap no stick!
I swear by it enough that all the guns have been treated with it!
 

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I use a variety of products myself, regular Hoppes, Hoppes Bench, Hoppes Elite, Butches Bore Shine and Shooters foam cleaner. But one non gun cleaner product I have used that seems to break loose a lot of gunk is PB Blaster that you can get from Home Depot or Lowe's. Anybody else tried this on there bores?
 

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I hope this is the right place to post this. I am going to go out and try to get some of that carb cleaner mentioned up post.

I have a newly acquired 91/30 with a worn barrel with lots of fouling left in. I've tried the foaming bore cleaner and the Hoppe's and the Blue wonder in separate, discrete stages with plenty of dry patches between those. It appears that there is some real pitting in the barrel closer to the muzzle. I have been inclined to think that it is "clean enough" but when I leave Hoppe's No. 9 in the bore and look back, I can see eruptions in the bore in the area where the pitting is worst. :( When I run another Hoppe's soaked patch through the bore, it comes out completely green. So should I just put this Mosin-Nagant away and not shoot it, consider it "shot out" and relegate it to the safe, or would firing ammo be a) unsafe, or b) a waste of good ammo on a shot out bore, or c) beneficial to scraping out some of the rust, or d) all of the above?

Also, if carb-choke cleaner is used, is there something one should know about using it that is different from ordinary solvent?:confused:
Thanks for any input or recommendations you might have.
 

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I hope this is the right place to post this. I am going to go out and try to get some of that carb cleaner mentioned up post.

I have a newly acquired 91/30 with a worn barrel with lots of fouling left in. I've tried the foaming bore cleaner and the Hoppe's and the Blue wonder in separate, discrete stages with plenty of dry patches between those. It appears that there is some real pitting in the barrel closer to the muzzle. I have been inclined to think that it is "clean enough" but when I leave Hoppe's No. 9 in the bore and look back, I can see eruptions in the bore in the area where the pitting is worst. :( When I run another Hoppe's soaked patch through the bore, it comes out completely green. So should I just put this Mosin-Nagant away and not shoot it, consider it "shot out" and relegate it to the safe, or would firing ammo be a) unsafe, or b) a waste of good ammo on a shot out bore, or c) beneficial to scraping out some of the rust, or d) all of the above?

Also, if carb-choke cleaner is used, is there something one should know about using it that is different from ordinary solvent?:confused:
Thanks for any input or recommendations you might have.

Try the thing out before you put it away in the safe. Sometimes they'll surprise you. Also I believe it would be choice "C" as well.

Millman
PS. I have T53 that I swear some chinese fellow stored in the creek. It shoots pretty good.
 

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Clean any Trace of Oil out before you shoot it.

Hi Guys,

I bought a nice Finn M/N -91 it has a VKT barrel -1942 -from a pal, the bore looks clean (like NEW) but the more you scrub it the more dirty patches come out of it!

I shot 50 rounds(light ball) the patchs are still coming out black or green depending on what cleaner I'm using! I used about 3 ounces of Hoppes #9 and cleaned the bore with foaming bore twice!
I must have used about 40-50 patchs!

I read where sometimes, you have to shoot the heck out of it & clean when warm.
I did that & STILL no joy!

Any tips for me?

The rifle is really accurate, so mabe I should stop making a big deal about it.

My other question is this.
Will the rifle clean up faster using lead bullets or reloads with 308 or 311 bullets rather than Russian mil. surp?

Thanks for any help,
point6
Clean that sucker good with Carburator or a good Parts Cleaner and brush . If you're going to try to clean it by shooting it be sure you clean all the oil from the barrel with Windex or equal before. If you shoot it with oil in the bore the oil will turn to Carbon and that will burnish into the metal. That's why some people think the bore shines after shooting a few times.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi Guys,

I'm following this thread with great intrest!
I coatedthe bore with BW and a wire brush.

It looked good before I started ,getting light grey patchs. Scrubbed the bore as the instructions stated, The next patch was BLACK as COAL!
I have to say the bore is looking better with every treatment.
Iwill get some carb cleaner tomorrow if i have time i'll get some PB blaster TOO!

The bore is wet down with B W for the night!

I just cannot wait to try the M-44 rifle Ihave this is SO MUCH FUN!
I'm looking for the parts to build a bore cleaner -electronic

Best to all,
point6
 

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Try the thing out before you put it away in the safe. Sometimes they'll surprise you. Also I believe it would be choice "C" as well.

Millman
PS. I have T53 that I swear some chinese fellow stored in the creek. It shoots pretty good.
Thanks. This Mosin was definitely shot a whole bunch, or to use the term I've heard recently, "ridden hard and put away wet." I bet the pitting scraped off plenty of bullet jacket material, hence the eternally green patches. The thing that has me concerned is the way it looks like eruptions from the lands after sitting with solvent for a while. I'm sure they are mostly bubbles and whatnot, but it looks for all the world like obstructions. New to my experience at anyrate.
 

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Accuracy is relative to the condition of the bore...

Son and I try to shoot weekly, at least twice monthly, and expend at least 200 rounds through the rifle selections of the week, which leaves us some really dirty rifles to clean. We have gone through just about every product on the market to arrive at the combination that works best for us, is the most cost effective to use, and takes the least time to do. Just personal experience but, why I recommend the method we use. Note that all our guns have been Extreme Cleaned and treated with MolyFusion. Our after range cleaning time has been cut by 2/3 and expenses cut by 80%. The process has restored several milsurps I thought were going to become wall hangers and vastly improved accuracy on all of them!

Understand that the bullet is made to very specific dimensions to slightly engage the lands and impart spin as it travels down the tube.
The amount of heat created by the burning powder behind a rifle bullet is sufficient to vaporize copper (and or lead on an open tail bullet) into a gaseous state. The gaseous metal deposits out as it cools down the length of the barrel and combines with the carbon deposits which adhere to the metal.
Three components - copper, lead and carbon.

Eventually, residue will accumulate sufficiently to decrease bore diameter just enough to squeeze the bullet smaller than the intended diameter. The lead in the core has to go somewhere. It will squeeze out enough to bulge the nose or tail end. That makes the bullet get out of round or off balance.
Deformed bullets do not fly straight!

Some "hunting rifles" are purposely built with slightly oversized bores and don't shoot well until well well fouled! The makers know full well that the average hunter won't clean it well and account for that by leaving a little extra room. They can require 30-50 rounds to get "shot in".

Many handloaders will change bullet diameters until they find the right fit that shoot the most accurate in their particular rifle, be that over or under sized. A thousands of an inch diameter change can make a huge difference!

Advanced Auto Parts Carb & Choke Cleaner.
The object is to break up and remove the carbon deposits that are trapping the copper and lead fouling.
Whatever the formulation in this stuff is ... it just works better than any other spray cleaner we have tried. Beats the pants off Gun Scrubber at almost 10:1 cheaper per can!
Cheaper by the case! (Buy it by the case as you will use a lot!)
It does not evaporate as fast as Berkebile 2+2 allowing more time to work with it.
Spray down bore from chamber end until it runs out.
Let stand five minutes.
Stroke with brass/copper brush 10-20 times.
Flush liberally from chamber end and watch black gunk run out!
SOAK a patch with it and patch several times. Patches will be black.
Repeat until patches are no longer black. 90% of carbon and fouling is now removed. (also works with a well soaked Bore Snake)

Soak 1 patch in Shooters Choice Bore Cleaner and swab barrel.
Let stand for 20 minutes. Brush again.
Flush with carb cleaner and watch black gunk flow out!
Repeat and patch with carb cleaner patches until nothing is coming out.
At this point, rifle is clean enough to patch with oil patch (lightly) and put away.

For more obvious fouling and copper fouling removal:
Start with above and repeat until nothing is coming out.
Soak 1 patch with Shooter's Choice Copper Cleaner and swab bore until well coated.
Shooters Choice will dissolve copper without damage to your bore.
It works well. Some copper cleaners have a very high ammonia content and can seriously damage the bore if not used correctly!
Let copper cleaner stand 1 hour.
Repeat the cleaning process from the beginning.
It may require several cycles until no GREEN/BLUE dissolved copper residue comes out on the patches.

Still a little dirty?
Spray bore from both ends with Shooter's Choice Extreme Bore Cleaner foam until filled up completely.
Let stand 1 hour.
Brush and flush.
Repeat cycle from the beginning until patches are coming out clean.
Extreme Clean is a bit more potent than the straight Bore Cleaner and will dissolve copper.
May require several cycles until nothing is coming out.
Very good stuff ... too expensive for routine cleaning.

Initial Extreme Cleaning or TWICE YEARLY Extreme Cleaning ...
Follow the cycle above.
Fill bore with Wipe Out foaming cleaner.
This is THE extreme cleaner!
It gets everything out down to bare metal but is NOT COST EFFECTIVE for routine cleaning even though the little can goes a long way.
Recommended fall and spring cleaning cycles or before you pack them away for the winter.

Place the action on several layers of newspaper as it seeps out all over as it breaks down.
Place over heater vent (increased temps speeds the process)
Let stand 3 days.
Start the cycle again from the beginning.
It can take up to four complete cycles with Wipe Out until the bore is perfectly clean! It WILL eventually get completely clean!

ONLY ... when the bore is perfectly clean down to bare metal with no fouling ... can you apply MolyFusion as it must react with and adhere to the metal. ANY fouling prevents it from working as intended as it can't penetrate and react with the bore metal.
http://www.shootersolutions.com/mol12ozkit.html
1 kit will do a hundred guns!~
READ about what it is and what it does on the site.
I can somewhat believe the claims of improved accuracy as it vastly reduces fouling.
Simply put, crap no stick!
The carbon and metal deposits can't adhere as tightly to the metal.
Once treated, carb cleaner alone will remove a good 98% of everything in there on the first cleaning cycle!

MolyFusion is a PERMENANT treatment that reacts with and binds to the metal surface. It can only be removed by GRINDING!
The bore only needs to be properly treated ONCE, providing it is adequately Extreme Cleaned to begin with. I still repeat treat it at least once a year.

I swear by this product enough that ALL my guns have been treated with it!
Believe or not claims of improved accuracy ...
I would tend to agree as fouling is considerably reduced!
What I do attest to is 2/3 reduction in cleaning time and effort!
Following a couple hundred rounds, a treated gun can be effectively cleaned in less than half an hour!

Note MolyFusion is also a fantastic and permanent lubricant to apply to trigger parts and sears/ bolts for a smooth as warm butter action!

Extreme Cleaning and MolyFusion treatment can take a few weeks per gun. This makes a great over the winter project to accomplish while you are trapped in the cave by bad weather. You will appreciate the final results in the spring when you can go to the range and dirty them up again!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi Guys,

I have the Finn M-91 some place near clean at the moment. The bore shines like a new dime, but I'm still getting dirty grey patchs. Three days of slopping various bore cleaners including Chore boy copper pads & wetting the bore over night to loosen stuff up.

I hope to make it to the store for parts to build the flash light electric barrel cleaning unit soon.

Best to all & thanks,
point6
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hi SSC,

Keep cleaning it. In about a week a guy in a floppy hat & long dark rain coat will approch you.
He will give you the "secret handshake" Then you will be a full member of the group.
LOL
All we can do is plug away at them.

Best,
point6
 
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