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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
A well-known Internet auction seller gave this explanation of the triple-V markings: "Yugoslav built Mannlicher Steyr Model M95M that is in standard 8mm Mauser and somehow ended up in Greece during or around WWII with a very rare Greek cartouche on the right side butt stock of VVV which stands for “The People-The King-Freedom”. This, of course, is not true. Only one of these words starts with an Λ. The meaning of the VVV is still unknown, unfortunately, despite my numerous inquiries with my Greek friends.
  1. People - λαός [laos]
  2. King - βασιλέας, βασιλιάς [basileas]
  3. Freedom - ελευθερία [elefteria]
How difficult is to verify that in the age of Internet? Why should the Internet propagate myths rather than facts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

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Why should the Internet propagate myths rather than facts?
Because there is money to be made from propagating myths. Look no further than the booming business in conspiracy theories & those making money off of them. The internet is nothing more than another computer related tool. The problem with computer related tools is that, on the one hand, they are only as smart as the people programming them, and, on the other hand, they are only as smart as the people using them.
 

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I don't know what it is, but it surely is NOT Greek. Those are not lambdas in any case, unless they were stamped upside down. Assuming that any stock stamping is properly oriented with the buttplate facing down, the only corresponding Greek letter is the lower case "n" (ni or nu, written "v"). But that makes no sense either.

Over many years I have seen a sprinkling of these -- mostly, I believe, on ex-Spanish Civil War rifles imported by Interarms in the 1960s.

M
 

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Veni, vidi, vici - that would be inscribed on Caesar's very own rifle. And AFAIK, the Greeks seldom used Latin to express themselves.
That's because it is a Roman capture mark.:laugh:
 

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There is nothing on this rifle that shows me it is Greek.
At first I thought that the VVV was a Greek communist group but I could find none listed with these symbols. The seller should have his facts straight before he posts a sale.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
There is nothing on this rifle that shows me it is Greek...
I know, that's why I posted it here. Same story with the "Russian" Luger with crossed rifles - there is nothing Russian about it, there are just funny stories made up by dealers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Most likely it was a repair plug that fell off. Looks like it suffered a bullet damage, look how deep the hole is!
 

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Hello Nick,
If it was Greek what type of markings would it have? I know the Greeks used these M95's as my Brother's Father-in-law was in the Greek Army and used one from 1949 to 1953. I asked him but he could not recall.
Regards pj308
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)

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I will have to check what "The Arms of the Hellenes" has on the captured weapons specifically. The regular issue weapons are a different story, they have many Greek markings. I posted a few scans of Greek-marked rifles here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?140765-Greek-Schoenauer-or-Mannlicher-bayonet/page3

I contacted the person with this rifle I am pasting his reply . I don't have the book refrenced but sure someone here does ?

"check out the reference book "Military Rifle Markings" by Noel Schott neat old gun"

I noticed this rifle a week ago and was wondering about the storyline attached to it ?
 

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I noticed this rifle too, even though I'm still quite novice in the collecting Greek rifles but straight away I brushed it off with anything to do with Greek history. At the time I remember thinking of my own Greek words to describe this seller, "Ma_ _ _a"
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
"check out the reference book "Military Rifle Markings" by Noel Schott neat old gun"
Ha! I have been waiting for someone to recall this book. Now we have a full 360° circle, because this theory was generated by some collectors (obviously, with no knowledge of Greek), entered in the book and is now used by other collectors as the ultimate truth.

Hoffman & Schott's story doesn't hold one drop of water. While "Laos" is indeed "people" and it does begin with a lambda, "Likourgos" does not mean "a king", and "freedom" is not "lefteria", but rather "Elefteria". As I said a simple search on the Net will show that there was a king named Lycurgus of Sparta; however, this is not the word for "king", but a person's name. Same applies to the word "freedom" - a search of any of the countless electronic dictionaries will show the proper spelling and will be obvious that the word does not begin with a lambda, but with an E.
And the insert about the "traditional Greek war cry" is especially neat! :grin: After presenting these stories to my Greek friends my reputation of a more or less serious collector was definitely hurt...

PS. And yes, I have Hoffman & Schott's book. Here is a scan of their VVV "information". Right next to the VVV story there is another marvel, the one explaining the meaning of AOI as "Athena Oporon Ionis", which they translate as "Athena always forever" - absolutely hilarious!!!! Now we know that AOI ain't Italian and it ain't "Africa Orientale Italiana", but 100% Greek.

After such anecdotal "information" you understand why I can no longer take this book seriously. As my Greek godfather would say, "Malaka!" (He assured me it's a nice word :))
 

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Ha! I have been waiting for someone to recall this book. Now we have a full circle, because this theory was generated by some collectors (obviously, with no knowledge of Greek), entered in the book and is now used by other collectors as the ultimate truth.

Hoffman & Schott's story doesn't hold one drop of water. While "Laos" is indeed "people" and it does begin with a lambda, "Likourgos" does not mean "a king", and "freedom" is not "lefteria", but rather "Elefteria". As I said a simple search on the Net will show that there was a king named Lycurgus of Sparta, and is not the word for "king", but a person's name. Same applies to the word "freedom" - a search of any of the countless electronic dictionaries will show the proper spelling and will be obvious that the word does not begin with a lambda, but with an E.

PS. And yes, I have Hoffman & Schott's book. Here is a scan of the VVV "information". Right next to the VVV story there is another marvel, the one explaining the meaning of AOI as "Athena Oporon Ionis", which they translate as "Athena always forever" - absolutely hilarious!!!! Now we know that AOI ain't Italian and ain't "Africa Orientale Italiana", but 100% Greek.

After such anecdotal "information" you understand why I can no longer take this book seriously. As my Greek godfather would say, "Malaka!" (He assured me it's a nice word :))
Are you trying to say the book is not a reliable source ? Is it written by some collector to expound their own collections ?
I have heard from a source that some collectors wil get together and come up with "information" and publish it to embellish their own collections ?
You think there is truth to that ?
That be oprah of gun collecting
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Are you trying to say the book is not a reliable source ?
Well, you tell me if it is reliable or not. There are enough books that explain the meaning of AOI and enough paper & on-line dictionaries to check the spelling of "people-king-freedom" in Greek.

Note the lack of reference literature and the somewhat cautious "we are told" and "we cannot vouch" - if you are not sure, why even list it?
 

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Interesting attachment there Nick. I dont know that book and like I said I am no profesional in Greek Rifle markings, however, one thing I am very advanced in is Greek history. I can confirm that throughout all my years reasurching ancient/modern greek history, nowhere have I ever come across "AOI" or "VVV". I can mention probably 100 war phrases / battle cries but never heared of "Laos - Lycurgus - Eleftheria" (even if it did make sence which it dont)
The closest relation to vvv I could make out knowing a fair bit of ancient Greek text is "VUV" (NOUN in English sound) which ment "now", "time" or possibly "current".

Conclusion = it means something else thats definately not Greek origin if its on a rifle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
.. throughout all my years reasurching ancient/modern greek history, nowhere have I ever come across "AOI" ...
AOI is 1,000% confirmed to be Italian, absolutely no doubt about it. I posted it as another example of the stories born by uninformed people with access to mass media.
 

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In the 1994 edition of Hoffman & Schott neither VVV nor AOI are found in the section for Greece.
Anybody who expects any one reference (printed or online) to be 100% correct in all aspects should rethink the notion.
Dealers are, as a rule, generalists and should not be expected to have the level of expertise that a specialist is expected to have; even specialists make mistakes.
 
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