Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
21,039 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I took the time to sift through all 359 search results of the word "Cossack" here in The Collector's Forum. Thirty-nine examples were initially identified. I have sorted them out by model, year, serial, owner, and made notes when information is available. Only examples that could be verified by pictures or, when pics were no longer available, by confirmation of members of The Collector's Forum are included.

A few examples were also found on 7.62X54r.net, and The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

The list is by no means inclusive, exclusive, complete, or anything like Gospel. But it is fairly well established from 2007 to present. As you read this list, you may find errors, omissions, duplicates, or monkeys in a barrel - I hope not. I do hope you find it informative, if not intriguing.

I don't know how to create a data-base template, so please accept my lame table and the use of excessive punctuation.

Please bring any discrepancies or new information to light, and I will edit the list. In the mean time, thanks for looking.

Total Count Update = 43 (2/25/14)

All Cossack M91 Rifles are Izhevsk Arsenal production.

Year.......... Serial ..........Owner (Country/Other) ............ Notes
...................................default = U.S.

Ex-Cossack, updated to M91/30 specifications:

1. 1920 ...................Gunslingerdoc ........................post-war stock
2. 1920 ..197033 .....martin08................................ post-war stock, 1900 Sestroyetsk receiver
3. 1920 ..169220..... archie360............................... wreath stamped over eagle on receiver
4. 1920.. 180153..... spclk..................................... PM stamp on receiver
5. 1921............................................................... Sold on Gunbroker for $2,000 on 3/28/11
6. 1920.................. Marcus................................... pre-war stock
7. 1921.................. idaho
8. N/A.................... gunhorde............................... PM stamp on receiver, may be duplicate
............................................................................of spclk example
9. 1895.................. 7.62X54r
10. 1905.. 4748.......tommygun..............................war-time stock



Ex-Cossack, updated to M91/38 specifications:

1. 1909.. 5671........ Marksman Tim
2. 1908.. 210X ........kf4zra ....................................Serbian Crown stamp
3. 1895................... mawkie ..................................no crossbolt
4. 1896................... mawkie ..................................no import mark
5. N/A..................... tojones
6. N/A .....................7.62X54r
7. 1898 .................. rmasters
8. 1900................... gunhorde................................ no crossbolt
9. 1912.................... 2DOG
10.1895..45325.........Arik.........................................1895 receiver
11. 1901.. 633.......... PherBag
12. 1909.. 500 ......... jindodog............................... pegged splice above right finger groove, steel crossbolt


Cossack - Original, Finned, Captured and/or Updated to 1909 specifications:

1. 1918................... kh (Germany)
2. 1909.. 3307......... gbjder....................................... barrel cut 3", war-time stock, Partisan gun?
3. 1896.. 114283 .... JPS ........................................... flat rear sight leaf, origial handguard cut,
................................................................................crossbolt added, KA3 sight
4. 1904 .. 7738....... JPS ............................................Konovalov rear sight, original handguard cut
................................................................................crossbolt added, Deutsches Reich on stock, KA3 sight
................................................................................matching numbers
5. 1909.. 2636 ........greiver....................................... M91/30 handguard, [SA] stamp, D-chamber
................................................................................Finnish 2-piece stock
6. 1912.. 12272...... dtmosin ...................................... original handguard cut
7. 1909.. 4343........ dtmosin....................................... M91/30 handguard, D-chamber, Finn swivels
8. N/A................... adam1517 .................................. [SA] stamp, D-chamber
9. 1895................. NW Swede.................................... Finn stamped, Finn stock
10. 1899................. ksstargazer (friend).......................Original full handguard, no import mark
.................................................................................Konovalov rear sight
11. 1909................. Roshi.......................................... Finn stamped, Finn swivels, M91/30
..................................................................................handguard
12. 1897(?)............ FGD135 ....................................... Finn stock, Century import
13. 1895 (or 1899).. FGD135........................................ sportered stock, but metal uncut
14. 1899................ Postrock ........................................Finn stock
15. 1899................. dg13 (not owner).......................... Konovalov rear sight, was considering buying
16. 1894.. 42967..... bb91........................................... German/Austrian mark, original handguard cut
...................................................................................Konovalov rear sight, no import mark
17. 1909.. 2864....... jleiper ........................................German marked, ersatz bayonet mount, Ka3
.................................................................................marked rear sight, painted number on stock
..................................................................................(not matching)
18. 1905.. 6595........martin08......................................Double [SA], D-stamped sight base, Finn matched bolt
.................................................................................one piece Russian stock, M91/30 handguard, Konovalov
.................................................................................rear sight.



Unknown/Other configuration

1. 1920............... vintovka
2. N/A ................. royke
3. N/A................ storkman............................................... M91/59
4. 1895.. 47024.....facebook...............................................commercial sporter, 1909 sight update
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
21,039 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Where's #19? Or is that what your about to share with us? :confused: :grin:


Sent you a note!
See, I put up all these disclaimers about how incomplete, or how wrong I might be, and all I get is grief!

...oh, and some good information in your note, too. BB91's and Wiley455's from the Scandinavian Peninsula are one and the same. Thanks for the correction. And I'll fix the numbers. GGAACCKK!
 

·
Diamond Member with Oak Clusters and Swords
Joined
·
1,598 Posts
See, I put up all these disclaimers about how incomplete, or how wrong I might be, and all I get is grief!

...oh, and some good information in your note, too. BB91's and Wiley455's from the Scandinavian Peninsula are one and the same. Thanks for the correction. And I'll fix the numbers. GGAACCKK!
LOL!!! No grief bud just anxiously waiting for that other shoe to drop! :) I HOPE! Thanks for the list!
 

·
Super Moderator
Field Editor ~ GUNS Magazine, Co-Author ~ Serbian Army Weapons of Victory &PH - Kudu Safaris
Joined
·
11,550 Posts
An interesting exercise, however my personal opinion as a WWI Collector.......

Original Imperial Russian examples should be listed in a separate category apart from Finn altered rifles. An errant "SA" mark on an original Cossack rifle is one thing, however IMHO an Imperial Cossack barreled receiver in a Finnish replacement stock has lost much of it's identity as well as it's value. It is no longer a Cossack rifle. It's a Finnish reworked Cossack rifle. Just not the same thing in terms of collectibilty or value.

Warmest regards,

JPS

PS - My sights are also marked "KA3". ;>)
 

·
Oak Leaves with Clusters Member
Joined
·
3,497 Posts
I've done a similar thing with my M91/38 Excel file. I have 83 M91/38s listed but up to 7 could be duplicates.

Folks can email me and I will send them the current status. The data is also in a sticky on the Russian MN forum.
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
21,039 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
An interesting exercise, however my personal opinion as a WWI Collector.......

Original Imperial Russian examples should be listed in a separate category apart from Finn altered rifles. An errant "SA" mark on an original Cossack rifle is one thing, however IMHO an Imperial Cossack barreled receiver in a Finnish replacement stock has lost much of it's identity as well as it's value. It is no longer a Cossack rifle. It's a Finnish reworked Cossack rifle. Just not the same thing in terms of collectibilty or value.

Warmest regards,

JPS

PS - My sights are also marked "KA3". ;>)
Unaltered rifles would be far more valuable than rebuilt/refurbished. Another echelon, altogether.

KA3 sight leaf info added.

:thumbsup:
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
4,186 Posts
Impressive Google-Fu!

Great data and research - thanks. Perhaps you should cross post this in the survey forum.

I didn't see the bubba-ized 1895 that was previously up on armslist unless that is the same as the facebook example you have listed.
 

·
Super Moderator
Field Editor ~ GUNS Magazine, Co-Author ~ Serbian Army Weapons of Victory &PH - Kudu Safaris
Joined
·
11,550 Posts
Unaltered rifles would be far more valuable than rebuilt/refurbished. Another echelon, altogether.

KA3 sight leaf info added.

:thumbsup:

Hello martin08,

Hence my suggestion that altered or rebuilt rifles should be placed in a separate category from Imperial Russian issue or original configuration.

An interesting study would be to run the same data for the M1907 Carbine. IMHO it would confirm what I have said for years, i.e. that surviving original, unaltered Cossack rifles are far more rare than the M1907 Carbines.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
21,039 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Much of the information that was available in the threads was incomplete, i.e. pictures were absent, descriptions were not all inclusive, matching numbered parts were not all disclosed, not all alterations were declared.

It was not difficult to identify by model. M91/38's and M91/30's were readily identifiable, either by pics, owner descriptions, or feedback from members.

So, the Cossack model that appeared in original barreled action configuration were lumped together as "Cossacks". Nearly every one of them received some kind of modification from their original manufactured state, either through rear sight update, crossbolt addition, parts replacement (including stocks), German stamps, Austrian stamps, D-reamed chambers, [SA] property stamps, Partisan changes, ersatz bayo lugs, cut-down original handguards, replaced 91/30 handguards...

...all, with the possible exception of Karl-Heinz Wrobel's 1918 specimen, were altered from original manufactured concition, if in at least one small way. And without detailed pictures, it would even be difficult to declare KH's as entirely unaltered.

Not to be contrary, but a Cossack barreled action fitted to a Finn-spliced stock is virtually as much of a Cossack as one which received a German Depot inspection and/or rework, IMO. They are both in a category of less than two dozen counted from the most popular Mosin Nagant forums in the world at this time, and fare well in sharing the same platform until someone makes another model out of them.

Cossacks, all. Some more valuable than others. You have two of the most desirable ones for sure, JPS!

:crossfingers:

p.s. Just received confirmation that mine is en route. Finn Stamped, M91/30 handguard, 1909 updates (Russian stock).

 

·
Super Moderator
Field Editor ~ GUNS Magazine, Co-Author ~ Serbian Army Weapons of Victory &PH - Kudu Safaris
Joined
·
11,550 Posts
Much of the information that was available in the threads was incomplete, i.e. pictures were absent, descriptions were not all inclusive, matching numbered parts were not all disclosed, not all alterations were declared.

It was not difficult to identify by model. M91/38's and M91/30's were readily identifiable, either by pics, owner descriptions, or feedback from members.

So, the Cossack model that appeared in original barreled action configuration were lumped together as "Cossacks". Nearly every one of them received some kind of modification from their original manufactured state, either through rear sight update, crossbolt addition, parts replacement (including stocks), German stamps, Austrian stamps, D-reamed chambers, [SA] property stamps, Partisan changes, ersatz bayo lugs, cut-down original handguards, replaced 91/30 handguards...

...all, with the possible exception of Karl-Heinz Wrobel's 1918 specimen, were altered from original manufactured concition, if in at least one small way. And without detailed pictures, it would even be difficult to declare KH's as entirely unaltered.

Not to be contrary, but a Cossack barreled action fitted to a Finn-spliced stock is virtually as much of a Cossack as one which received a German Depot inspection and/or rework, IMO. They are both in a category of less than two dozen counted from the most popular Mosin Nagant forums in the world at this time, and fare well in sharing the same platform until someone makes another model out of them.

Cossacks, all. Some more valuable than others. You have two of the most desirable ones for sure, JPS!

:crossfingers:

p.s. Just received confirmation that mine is en route. Finn Stamped, M91/30 handguard, 1909 updates (Russian stock).

View attachment 752906


Hello Martin,

Excellent points one and all, however if your information is correct, you could......and in my opinion should..... sub-divide the rifles based on official alterations approved by the Imperial Russian Army versus later alteration by the Soviets or foreign armies such as Finland.

Per your comments above:

"So, the Cossack model that appeared in original barreled action configuration were lumped together as "Cossacks". Nearly every one of them received some kind of modification from their original manufactured state, either through rear sight update,..... An Imperial Russian alteration .....crossbolt addition,..... Another Imperial Russian update ..... parts replacement (including stocks), ..... This depends on who replaced the parts, and which parts including the stocks? ..... German stamps, Austrian stamps, D-reamed chambers, [SA] property stamps, ..... All additions that did not change the original configuration of the "as issued Cossack rifles" ..... Partisan changes, ersatz bayo lugs, cut-down original handguards, replaced 91/30 handguards." These changes all represent physical alterations to the original patterns and IMHO are no longer pure Cossack rifles."
"...all, with the possible exception of Karl-Heinz Wrobel's 1918 specimen, were altered from original manufactured condition, if in at least one small way. And without detailed pictures, it would even be difficult to declare KH's as entirely unaltered."
Personally I would trust Karl-Heinz's judgement if he says a Mosin is all original! ;>)

You're truly splitting hairs if you divide completely original examples as being somehow different if the only change is a cartouche or a stamped marking on the barrel or receiver.

Karl-Heinz's 1896 example with the flat rear sight leaf currently resides in my collection. His rifle at this point in it's History has been my rifle for almost 10 years now. It is 100% as issued by the Imperial Russian Army. The 1906 dated Cossack rifle in my collection is also as issued with the only alteration being the Imperial Russian addition of the Kornilov rear sight leaf, which was an official alteration based on the adoption of the new cartridge loading in 1908. The rifle was captured by German forces during WWI, inspected and the stock was stamped with the typical "Deutches Reich" cartouche. The stock marking aside, the rifle is 100% matching, including the stock and was not altered in any way by the Germans other than the addition of an inspection mark in the stock. Should this rifle be considered as an "altered" example and NOT an Imperial Russian rifle ??? Somehow I don't think so.

"Not to be contrary, but a Cossack barreled action fitted to a Finn-spliced stock is virtually as much of a Cossack as one which received a German Depot inspection and/or rework, IMO. They are both in a category of less than two dozen counted from the most popular Mosin Nagant forums in the world at this time, and fare well in sharing the same platform until someone makes another model out of them."
You must be joking? A spliced two-piece Finnish replacement stock, with the overlapping finger joints that was added decades after the rifle was originally manufactured is somehow considered the same as a rifle with the original matching Russian stock that has had nothing more than a single "Deutches Reich" cartouche stamped into the original stock? How could a Cossack rifle with a foreign replacement stock be rated the same as an all original Russian issue rifle? Once again, you must be joking??? How can two rifles, one with the original Russian matching stock with a German cartouche be considered the same as a rifle that has a complete stock replacement???? NAW!!!!! I don't think so?

For consideration based on your categories.......

1) There are surviving Russian Cossack rifles that are complete with all original parts.

2) There are surviving Russian Cossack rifles that are complete with all original parts with the exception of the Kornilov sight leaf upgrade for the 1908 spitzer ammunition, which was an official Imperial Russian upgrade.

3) There are surviving Russian Cossack rifles that are complete with all original parts that are also foreign marked, but otherwise not physically altered in any way.

4) There are surviving Russian Cossack rifles that have undergone substantial Soviet alterations, i.e. replacement stocks, barrel length alterations, model configuration changes, etc. enacted by the Soviet Army.

5) There are surviving Russian Cossack rifles that have been altered as by foreign armies such as Finland that are recognizable only based on the KA3 markings on the barrel.

Your efforts regarding this "survey" are greatly appreciated and of obvious interest to our fellow members, however my personal opinion is that you need to rethink the criteria for the various categories into which you have divided the population of Cossack related M1891 Three-Line rifles. Perhaps I'm knit picking as a dyed in the wool WWI Collector? However if you set up a table at a gun show and placed an original, as issued, unaltered Cossack rifle next to a "KA3" marked M91 in a Finnish finger spliced stock or a "KA3" marked M91/30 or M91/38, would you place the same price tag on each??? I somehow seriously doubt it! ;>)

Just my $ 0.02 worth based on your categories! By all means, carry on with your survey.

Warmest regards,

JPS

PS - Ignore the post above if you think that I'm being too picky! When it becomes time to pass my Collection on to the next generation of caretakers, the rifles will speak for themselves. Based on my connections and pricing, when it becomes time to part with the majority of the rare Imperial Russian rifles, they will be returned to collections in their country of origin.
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
21,039 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Advice heard, and respectfully abstaining from changes. The Model of 1891 is still considered an M91 if it is original matching from Imperial Russia, or pieced together in Finland from the scrap of various countries. But I wouldn't take $150 for my original matching 1898 Tula. The market and knowledgeable collectors will sort out my M91 if it ever goes on the block. Much would be the same with an original vs. rebuilt Cossack.

And again, the detailed information (beyond KA3 confirmation) was so sparse among the threads, that there could be several that fit the Russian arsenal approved upgrades category, but there is no way of knowing without detailed interviews and/or comprehensive pics.

I have, however, changed the inventory to reflect the duplicate entry.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top