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I just got some 303 ball head stamped POF 60 7. As I understand it it is Pakistani manufactured in 1960 with the Mk 7 projectile? Also, I took one apart out of curiosity and the propellant is Cordite. How long was Cordite used, was it weighed or a was certain number of strands used?
Thanks
Don
 

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Cordite was used up until the introduction of 7.62mm NATO ammunition - which had to be nitro to conform to the agreed standards.

Cordite was a certain number of strands of specific diameter (it was extruded through a die) and cut to a specific length.

One of the results is that cordite .303 ammo - produced in dozens of factories over seventy years - is extraordinarily consistent, far more so than nitro even from the same factory (even from the same batch, in some factories!).

Yesterday, I demonstrated this to an Enfield newbie: I shot 15x rounds, all different headstamps. The oldest was 1917, the newest 1959. All of the rounds - including three "hangfires" - landed within the 4" group at 100yds. As far as I know, that is not possible with any other type of ammunition - e.g. with 7.62mm (all post-1960s, of course) you will always get one or more types shooting to a different POI due to propellent variations, with the resulting group being maybe 12-16".
 

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I shot a few yesterday through a No4 Savage...all hangfires
I'll try in another rifle to see if I get the same results , but I doubt if it will make any diff.
Must have used 30 patches to clean inbetween a hot water flush and a couple of passes with a brush.
Real dirty fodder.
 

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I just got some 303 ball head stamped POF 60 7. As I understand it it is Pakistani manufactured in 1960 with the Mk 7 projectile? Also, I took one apart out of curiosity and the propellant is Cordite. How long was Cordite used, was it weighed or a was certain number of strands used?
Thanks
Don
Mark VII round rather than just bullet.

As someone has said, due to the metering method, Cordite does tend to be very consistent.

However I have also heard that POF is incredibly bad on hang fires.

Finally, all of the older Cordite loads will have corrosive primers an will need 'boiling out' immediately after firing.
 

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I've seen an old WW2 era film clip of women loading Cordite ammo carefully counting the strands and slipping them in by hand.
This was a Soviet film clip, so I suspect this was a reloading operation rather than standard manufacturing technique.

The earlier compressed Black Powder pellet loading required that the case be straight walled till loaded then the neck and shoulder were formed.

The crud left by Cordite loads is a resin based heat shield necessary because cordite burns about 20% hotter than more modern smokeless propellents.
Without the resin lube/heat shield bores were erodded in less than one third as many rounds as with it.
Cordite was an mining explosive adapted to use as a propellent.

The burning rate and pressure spikes of cordite are very different to those of smokeless powders.
Tests on a hunting pistol built on the No.4 action indicated that Cordite loads lost less than 100fps when fired through a 14 inch barrel compared to velocities from a standard length barrel.

A bore thats seen a great deal of use with cordite can develop an eroded section about one third to one half the way up. This is where the resin coating thins out and temperatures are still high.
A bore damaged in this way can be very unsafe , yet the damage is usually not detectable by eye.
If the throat is worn a bullet hitting the roughened section can strip its jacket and the next bullet will telescope into the shed jacket.
A rare occurance but documented in a case involving the death of a hunter who had his Enfield checked by a gunsmith who missed the signs of the roughened section.
This case resulted in some local stores refusing to sell .303 ammo, and selling off the enfields in stock as decorator items only.
Some great deals about then with NIB Jungle Carbines going for $35 and decent No.4 rifles going for $12.
I always suggest that an Enfield bore be carefully checked, with a bore scope if possible.

If new production Cordite loads were available I wouldn't hesitate to use them, if anything they are probably safer than some more modern loads.
But the older loads aren't worth the bother, too many hang fires and missfires.
 

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The crud left by Cordite loads is a resin based heat shield necessary because cordite burns about 20% hotter than more modern smokeless propellents.
Without the resin lube/heat shield bores were erodded in less than one third as many rounds as with it.

A bore thats seen a great deal of use with cordite can develop an eroded section about one third to one half the way up. This is where the resin coating thins out and temperatures are still high.
A bore damaged in this way can be very unsafe , yet the damage is usually not detectable by eye.

A rare occurance but documented in a case involving the death of a hunter who had his Enfield checked by a gunsmith who missed the signs of the roughened section.


I always suggest that an Enfield bore be carefully checked, with a bore scope if possible.

If new production Cordite loads were available I wouldn't hesitate to use them, if anything they are probably safer than some more modern loads.
But the older loads aren't worth the bother, too many hang fires and missfires.
I'd think we'd have to amicably agree to disagree about these points; There is a lot of urban myth about cordite out there, and I don't think any of the points I have selected are really true:

- I don't observe much "crud" when firing cordite; it seems a relatively clean propellant and no real difference from nitro powders in terms of residue;

- Never seen a bore that developed cordite erosion in that pattern, bores just exhibit progressive erosion from the throat and lead up to the muzzle. I'm sure that people have damaged their rifles through handloading with inappropriate powders, but official British military documents don't show any evidence of hazards from cordite - in fact the various trials evidence concludes that barrels last longer with cordite than with nitro;

- Strongly disagree that ammunition can cause erosion leading to a dangerous situation. Most of us have seen Enfield barrels shot out to the point where they were completely smoothbore, yet there is no recorded example - as far as I am aware - of any of the millions of Enfields suffering a catastrophic barrel failure for this reason. I've seen barrels with the bore corroded away almost to the external face go on to pass UK Proof firing. What were the circumstances of that hunter's death? How did a shed bullet jacket kill him?

- hangfires and misfires are due to failed primers. Cordite itself is virtually imperishable inside a round, and incredibly robust even when exposed. Many people have dug up corroded rounds on the WW1 fields and found them to be functional. Recently, a documentary team lifted some of the naval cordite charges that had lain on the Dardenelles seabed since Gallipoli - the cordite strands ignited and burned quite happily after 90 years in the sea. The fact that you can fire mixed batches of old cordite and achieve a group proves that the propellent performance has not in any way deteriorated.

- the most accurate .303 ammunition I have found to date (i have maybe 100 different types) is that red box Kynoch air service - dated 1928.
 

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I'd think we'd have to amicably agree to disagree about these points; There is a lot of urban myth about cordite out there, and I don't think any of the points I have selected are really true:

- I don't observe much "crud" when firing cordite; it seems a relatively clean propellant and no real difference from nitro powders in terms of residue;
Are you joking?
As I said the crud left behind by cordite loads is the resin goop that is placed on a card wad over the Cordite charge. Wiothout the goop the bores would be erroded to an unsafe condition in as little as 1000 rounds, thats why the goop is there, and thats the stuff that is so hard to remove.
Apparently you either haven't fired much cordite ammo or are missing the build up in your cleaning. Regular solvents don't touch it so you may think the bore is clean but its coated with the resin.

- Never seen a bore that developed cordite erosion in that pattern, bores just exhibit progressive erosion from the throat and lead up to the muzzle. I'm sure that people have damaged their rifles through handloading with inappropriate powders, but official British military documents don't show any evidence of hazards from cordite - in fact the various trials evidence concludes that barrels last longer with cordite than with nitro;
As long as the heat shield formed by the resin does its job, but I've seen several bores that showed the beginings of the erosion I mentioned, and its a recognized situation.
- Strongly disagree that ammunition can cause erosion leading to a dangerous situation. Most of us have seen Enfield barrels shot out to the point where they were completely smoothbore, yet there is no recorded example - as far as I am aware - of any of the millions of Enfields suffering a catastrophic barrel failure for this reason. I've seen barrels with the bore corroded away almost to the external face go on to pass UK Proof firing. What were the circumstances of that hunter's death? How did a shed bullet jacket kill him?
The second bullet telescoped into the shed jacket, pressure went through the roof, the bolthead disintegrated and part of it including the extrctor somehow ended up in his abdomen. He bled to death in a short time. I suspect that after his first shot acted funny, probably the bullet core exited and hit very low, held held the rifle down and away from himself thinking it was a bad cartridge. That would explain the bolthead fragments striking his lower abdomen.
I first read of this in American Rifleman magazine, they often did articles on court cases, and gave detailed descriptions of firearms failures. This was either mid 60' to early 70's.

You do realize that Smokeless powder loads were in use by WW1 and that many Enfields may have never been fired with Cordite.
Cordite was for the most part used in the tropics, while smokeless was more common in European theatre.
Other enfields rebarreled in later years may have been fired with smokeless only loads from that point onwards.

The majority of wear and bore damage to the Enfields was due to poor cleaning practices.
Eroded barrels would have been replaced as soon as the armorer was aware of the situation.

- hangfires and misfires are due to failed primers. Cordite itself is virtually imperishable inside a round, and incredibly robust even when exposed. Many people have dug up corroded rounds on the WW1 fields and found them to be functional. Recently, a documentary team lifted some of the naval cordite charges that had lain on the Dardenelles seabed since Gallipoli - the cordite strands ignited and burned quite happily after 90 years in the sea. The fact that you can fire mixed batches of old cordite and achieve a group proves that the propellent performance has not in any way deteriorated.
Misfired Cordite cartridges I've sectioned showed that the resin goop had leaked past the card wad and the strands were brown and greasy looking. The primers had ignited and the strand ends were melted like a nylon rope end sealed by fire.

- the most accurate .303 ammunition I have found to date (i have maybe 100 different types) is that red box Kynoch air service - dated 1928.

The facts are that Cordite burns at a much higher temperature than smokeless powders. Hot enough to erode barrel steels.
The resin heatshield is there for the purpose of protecting the bore, it doesn't always do the job.

As I said I would not mind shooting recent production Cordite ammo. The POF ammo was stored poorly in conditions of excessive temperatures, which probably caused the resin to leak down past the card wad. All the primers detonated but in the misfires the cordite was deactivated by the contamination.
Its likely that the cordite of the hangfire rounds was also contaminated to a lesser extent.

The reason few incidents involving eroded barrels have happened is because the British army knew about the possibilities far ahead of time and took steps to remove from service any barrels that began to show erosion.
Unfortunately a few rifles with deeply erroded bores ended up on the surplus market in the 60's.

My own No.4 two groove showed the beginings of errosion at the point I mentioned.
I was able to polish the broad lands of the two groove bore using a fitted leather lap.
While polishing I noted the difference in the amount of resistence, tiny though it was at that stage.


PS
Page 217 of the following PDF
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/T...ut=pdf&sig=ACfU3U3eGwBGp4zQIwEPNv8zR4XwsHkp5A

Explains why high temperature erosion from Cordite and similar propelents is rougher at the mid point of the bore than at breech and muzzle.

As a bonus it also explains the phenomena of "Craze Cracking" which some also seem to believe to be an urban legend these days.
 

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Craze cracking occurred in cadet rifles that were shot MANY THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS beyond normal barrel replacement. No it is not a myth, but on the other hand, it only occurred in those rifles.
The solution the MOD used was NOT to rebarrel the rifles, which would have corrected the problem, but rather to withdraw them from the cadet forces.
 

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Craze cracking occurred in cadet rifles that were shot MANY THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS beyond normal barrel replacement. No it is not a myth, but on the other hand, it only occurred in those rifles.
The solution the MOD used was NOT to rebarrel the rifles, which would have corrected the problem, but rather to withdraw them from the cadet forces.
Yep, rebarreling would be the solution just as rebarreling a "Cord worn" bore would be a solution.
The reference I linked to above explains exactly what craze cracking is, and how the effects accumulate.
Its really present from the first few shots, gas erossion just increases the effect.
Many a rifle was broken up for parts or DP'ed due to the unique wear pattern of Cordite Erosion. A good reason to examine any Enfield bore closely.

to recap
At the throat of the bore where temperature is highest and the gases move most quickly the erosion is very even, a washing effect that leaves the bore evenly washed out and the surface remains shiny and slick. At the muzzle temperatures and gas speeds have dropped greatly and due to acceleration of the projectile the exposure to gases as this point are a mere fraction.
The danger comes at the mid point of the bore, There temperatures are still very high but the gases have slowed and begun to eddy, this instead of evenly washing the surface will dig craters and grooves in the steel which get deeper and rougher the more rounds fired.

As the bore reaches its end of service life the washed out throat allows the bullet to accelerate more quickly but it can then contact the roughened portion (about 12 to 14 inches ahead of the breech) and the sudden increase in resistence has been known to strip the jacket from the core, the jacket then becoming lodged in the bore as the core blows through. A following round can telescope into the lodged jacket and resulting excessive pressures can blow out the breech bolt or shatter the bolthead.

If I remember correctly the service life could be 5,000-6,000 rounds with the heat shield goop, or less than 2,000 rounds without the resin goop.
Accuracy was said to begin to fall off noticably after as few as 500 rounds of Cordite even with the resin goop.

Hiram maxim's experiments showed that Cordite effectively wore out his water cooled machinegun barrels as far as any accuracy was possible in about 3,000 rounds unless the steel was specially hardened.
After 8,000 rounds through an unhardened bore the throat was opened into an egg shaped chamber and the gun ceased to function.

Mk I Cordite was more destructive than Cordite MD which was formulated to work at a lower temperature.
 

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I asked Peter Laidler on another forum about the cadet rifle incident. Here is a link to his response:

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/lee-enfield/lee-enfield.pl?read=69566
from your link
As for the crazing problems, well, while there was crazing, and I saw some, we used a bore-scope and if 'in the opinion of the examining armourer' it was excessive, the rifle was scrapped.
Ignoring a possible hazard is worse than supposedly blowing something out of proportion.
I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, I'm suggesting that bores should be examined for a known and recognized wear pattern that is not immediately apparent to the naked eye.

The British armorers knew enough to mark rifles with these conditions as unservicable or for emergency use only.

If I suggested that drivers check their tire pressure against the factory specifcations for their car, thats certainly not out of the question now is it.
 

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GunnerSam

I’m going to mark you down as the Worlds Greatest American Expert on British Cordite Powder, it always amazes me how many American experts we have on a British and Commonwealth rifle and now we have an American expert on British cordite powder.

Please stand and take your ovation from all your adoring fans.

Sincerely Ed Horton
The American Enfield Rookie
 

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GunnerSam

I’m going to mark you down as the Worlds Greatest American Expert on British Cordite Powder, it always amazes me how many American experts we have on a British and Commonwealth rifle and now we have an American expert on British cordite powder.

Please stand and take your ovation from all your adoring fans.

Sincerely Ed Horton
The American Enfield Rookie
I saw enough clapped out Enfield bores in the 60's to be curious about how they got that way.
If not for the influx of enfields with decent bores in the late 80's and early 90's I'd have never given owning an enfield another thought, though I always liked the action.

There are enough older imports showing up for sale in recent years that I expect there'll be some that have bad bores. It pays to examine the bore in any case and the peculiar wear pattern of Cordite errosion makes it easy to miss.

Only reason I caught it in my No.4 was that I used a pocket telescope pointed up the bore to aid in bore sighting. As I adjusted the focus I found I could zero in on the surface of the lands an inch at a time. When I got to the danger zone the difference was remarkable.

You can read the linked Encyclopedia Britanica entry on high temperature erosion of Cordite and other Nitro-Gylcerine based propelents , or not.
 

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Bore erosion starts at approximately 43,000 CUP when the peak flame temperature of the burning powder reaches the melting point of barrel steel.

If you use a fast burning powder such as IMR-3031 your barrel will start eroding from the throat, and as you change to slower burning powders the erosion curve move forward to the middle of the barrel.

I conceder this a learning forum on the Enfield rifle and not a soap box to insult our English speaking cousins, below is a little reading material for you to read on cordite and the many different types.

Shooting surplus .303 ammunition in surplus Enfield rifles that the host countries no longer wanted and sold off as surplus because it NO LONGER met military requirements is NOT how to evaluate a rifle or its ammunition.

The burning rate of cordite or any smokeless powder is governed by its mixture, size and deterrent coating, and there are many types of cordite powder.

Treatise on Ammunition 1915
http://home.comcast.net/~ehorton/TreatiseOnAmmunition1915.pdf


P.S. Please notice the Comcast.net/ AND ~ehorton in the file name this time so you can remember where you got the information from.:rolleyes:
 

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So you chose to ignore scientific fact.

Cordite is not comparable to the smokeless powders you are used to.
it has its own unique properties shared by few other propelents.

The gas erosion pattern of cordite and its cousins was extensively researched, those known facts have not changed over time.

Cordite MD burns at a slightly lower temperature than Cordite Mk I but both burn at a much higher temperature than more modern smokless propelents.
Mk I burns at over 4800 Degrees fahrenheit around 20% hotter than modern smokeless. Coedite MD burns at a temperature not much lower.

You can either accept the facts as established by those who studied the properties of these propelents or not.

If you are suggesting that its perfectly safe to fire a gas erodded barrel then you are doing everyone here a diservice.

This statement by Thunderbox I know from personal experience to be untrue.
- hangfires and misfires are due to failed primers. Cordite itself is virtually imperishable inside a round,
He has apparently never seen cordite strands deactivated by contamination by the resin sealant.
The contaminated strands I removed from misfired POF ammo would not even burn.

Strongly disagree that ammunition can cause erosion leading to a dangerous situation
Another statement that just doesn't make sense.
The phenomena of gas erosion was extensively researched for just this reason, and rifles with erodded bores would be withdrawn from service if an armorer spotted the situation.

I can link to extensive scientific treatises on cordite and its properties, but I doubt you'd read them.

The conventional wisdom here seems to be that if you haven't blown your own face off yet then its absolutely impossible for cordite to erode a bore to unsafe conditions.

I'll add links to the proper reference works later, For those who really want to know how cordite operates.

Heres the Dictionary of Applied Chemistry Vol. II 1912
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/A...ut=pdf&sig=ACfU3U32qJf2T1PUFTc5uxQJmtH1vS10Ag

Check page 461

Dictionary of applied chemistry volumne III 1922
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/A...ut=pdf&sig=ACfU3U2OK7Q4XT2c0YRQ-MPH63t_NiPtUw

Check page 68
Resin and beeswax added to Cordite MD to reduce temperatures. This along with the lube between the bullet and glazed card wad is the source of the crud I mentioned, crud which most nitro powder solvents can't remove effectively.
 

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GunnerSam

Please let me know what you had for breakfast, I want to know what is the breakfast of champions, I must be nice to be so much smarter than everyone in the British Empire.

But I have a question for you, how much in royalty fees did Britain pay Mauser Works for each Enfield produced compared to the American 03 Springfield.

And how much in royalty fees did Britain pay Nobel for manufacturing Cordite compared to what the U.S. paid out in royalty fees for producing Nobel’s powder formula.

And one more question, are you sure your not from the Surplus Rifle forum and use masking tape to measure headspace?



Cordite is a smokeless propellent explosive made by combining two explosives: nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. It has commonly been used in firearms since the early 20th Century. It has also been used in solid fuel rockets.
In 1886, a French chemist called Paul Vieille invented the first smokeless powder, called Poudre B (Poudre Blanche = white powder). It was made out of two forms of nitrocellulose (collodion and guncotton) softened with ethanol and ether and kneaded together. Three times more powerful than black powder, and not generating vast quantities of smoke, Poudre B was a great improvement on black powder (or Poudre Noire = black powder). The reason that it was smokeless is that the combustion products were mainly gaseous, compared to around 60% solid products for black powder (potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate etc). It was immediately adopted by the French military but tended to become unstable over time and led to many accidents; for example two battleships, the Jena and the Liberté, blew up in Toulon harbour in 1907 and 1911 respectively.
In 1887, Alfred Nobel invented a similar propellant explosive called ballistite, which was composed of 10% camphor, 45% nitroglycerin and 45% collodion. His patent specified that the nitrocellulose should be "of the well-known soluble kind". Over time, the camphor tended to evaporate, leaving an unstable explosive.
A government committee in the United Kingdom called the "Explosives Committee", chaired by Sir Frederick Abel monitored foreign developments in explosives. Abel and Sir James Dewar, who was also on the committee, jointly patented a new mixture, consisting of 58% nitroglycerin by weight, 37% guncotton and 5% vaseline in 1889. Using acetone as a solvent, it was extruded as spaghetti-like rods initially called "cord powder" or "the Committee's modification of ballistite", but this was swiftly abbreviated to "cordite". It was quickly discovered that the rate of burning could be varied by altering the surface area of the cordite. Narrow rods were used in small-arms and gave relatively fast burning, whilst thicker rods would burn more slowly and were used for longer barrels such as those used in artillery.
Nobel sued Abel and Dewer over patent infringement, eventually getting to the House of Lords in 1895, but lost because the words "of the well-known soluble kind" in his patent were taken to mean the soluble collodion and hence specifically excluded the insoluble guncotton.
Cordite, ballistite and Poudre B continued to be used in different armed forces for many years, but cordite gradually became predominant. One problem was that early versions of cordite quickly corroded gun barrels. To combat this, the British changed the mixture to 65% guncotton and 30% nitroglycerine (keeping 5% vaseline) in their version shortly after the end of the Second Boer War. This was known as cordite MD (=MoDified).
During the First World War, acetone was in short supply for the British and so a new form was developed. This was Cordite RDB (Research Department formula B), which was 52% collodion, 42% nitroglycerin and 6% vaseline. It tended to become unstable if stored too long; once acetone production increased, the older form replaced it. Research on solvent-free Cordite RDB continued primarily in the addition of stabilizers, which led to the type commonly used today.
An important development during the Second World War was the addition of another explosive, nitroguanidine, to the mixture to form triple-base cordites, or Cordite N. This solved two problems with the large naval guns of the day as fitted to capital ships. Nitroguanidine produces large amounts of nitrogen when heated, which had the benefit of reducing the muzzle flash, and its lower burning temperature greatly reduced the erosion of the gun barrel.
 

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But I have a question for you, how much in royalty fees did Britain pay Mauser Works for each Enfield produced compared to the American 03 Springfield.
The Lee action was an American design not German.

And how much in royalty fees did Britain pay Nobel for manufacturing Cordite
Nobel lost his suit.

Only Mk I and Cordite MD were used to any extent in .303 ammo.

Britian began importing smokeless powder from the US in 1915 due to short falls in Cordite production.


PS
Page 30 of the Teatise on ammunition you posted say
"All Cordite has a tendency to cause excessive rusting of the bore;
this is due to the high temperature and oxides of nitrogen formed on explosion".
 

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GunnerSam

The Enfield was a British and Commonwealth rifle and it used cordite in its .303 ammunition, if that bothers you should think about moving to the Mauser forum.

Rumor has it the Germans made superior weapons and ammunition but if I remember correctly they still lost both World Wars.

 

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The Enfield was a British and Commonwealth rifle and it used cordite in its .303 ammunition,

Yep, and they at least understood its drawbacks, as the treatise on ammunition you posted proves.
They also knew the necessity of bore inspections.

PS
The oxides of nitrogen the treatise mentions includes nitrous acid which decomposes into Nitric Acid.

If you don't believe bore condition should be checked carefully if any great amount of cordite ammo has been used then you are in the minority. Your own sources would bear this out, if you'd bothered to read them.

I can't see why you are beating your head against the wall in denial of the erosive and corrosive effects of Cordite, when the information has been publically available since before WW1.

Its not like forty year old Cordite is the only available ammunition for the Enfields. The British phased it out long before they phased out the Enfields and the .303 cartridge.

You might as well be defending mercuric primers, and cupronickel jackets.
 
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