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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
Look up "Thermal Protection " "Ablative shielding"
Ablative means it does its job in the process of being destroyed.

Then read the entry on Axite I posted earlier.

We've already established the presence of Resionous sealants in earlier production ammunition and their effects in protecting the bore.

Get up to speed.
 

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Sir Sidney Smith the pioneering forensic pathologist found those fibre tips in the bodies of Egyptian rioters in the 1920s. It was something of an embarrassment to the authorities, who had expressed a preference for believing the rioters had shot each other with pistols, which would be eccentric behaviour even by Egyptian standards. He thought the fibre in question was paper maché, and it was certainly very like it I suppose fine wood pulp would be pretty much the same thing.

He only knew of the specification for aluminium, so he wrote to the military authorities (I don't remember which ones), expressing concern whether contractors might have short-changed them and whether there might be a danger of carrying bacteria into a wound. He eventually got back a reply saying that it had been an authorised wartime modification, and that it was due to the limited supply of aluminium, no net saving being made. They said great care was taken that the material should be sterilised in processing. So the effect should be no worse than being shot in the normal way.

The tips were usually extruded as wire from billets cast to fit the interior of a hydraulic press, into which they were put red-hot. The wire was then cut off and swaged cold into the little cone shapes, just like the lead core.

I think I agree with Krinko, RH7777 and DocAV. Much as the sealant may have varied over the years, there is little if any evidence, except with the excessive quantities used by the POF, of the sealant leaving detectable signs, or having any effect on erosion. I don't know of anything attributed to Maxim, which wouldn't have put his egg-shaped cavity right in the throat area, where the most widely accepted theories would put it, and where it can be created by longer abuse of a machine-gun with modern propellants and barrel steel.

A lot gets said about passive smoking, but here we seem to see a bit of passive proving, where people are told "we" have established something, when "we" have done nothing of the sort.
 

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"I trust the bore shielding effect of resinous deposits either from the early lube/sealant or from the resins added to MD and later formulas is accepted."

Accepted, Gunner?
When I am done with this last lot of Dominion, I'll have had about 1500 rounds of .303 Cordite ammunition fired by my hand.....and I have never seen any "deposits".
How can I accept the "bore shielding" properties of something that does not exist?

Please keep in mind that this is the Lee Enfield Forum and not Sister Mary Margaret's Holy Cards For Correct Repetition Of The Catechism Forum.
-----krinko
Krinko,

I suggest that you save your typing fingers, like the rest of us.... LOL

One minute the resin is ablating away, protecting the bore from unfeasibly hot cordite, the next it is lodging in deposits that require a special tool to remove.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Sir Sidney Smith the pioneering forensic pathologist found those fibre tips in the bodies of Egyptian rioters in the 1920s. It was something of an embarrassment to the authorities, who had expressed a preference for believing the rioters had shot each other with pistols, which would be eccentric behaviour even by Egyptian standards. He thought the fibre in question was paper maché, and it was certainly very like it I suppose fine wood pulp would be pretty much the same thing.

He only knew of the specification for aluminium, so he wrote to the military authorities (I don't remember which ones), expressing concern whether contractors might have short-changed them and whether there might be a danger of carrying bacteria into a wound. He eventually got back a reply saying that it had been an authorised wartime modification, and that it was due to the limited supply of aluminium, no net saving being made. They said great care was taken that the material should be sterilised in processing. So the effect should be no worse than being shot in the normal way.

The tips were usually extruded as wire from billets cast to fit the interior of a hydraulic press, into which they were put red-hot. The wire was then cut off and swaged cold into the little cone shapes, just like the lead core.
When I sectioned one of the bullets pulled from the POF misfies I found a mass of what looked like the old brown paper towel paper compressed tightly in the tip. I'd expected to fing either Aluminum or wood.
When sawing through the tip a very rank chemical odor filled the room, I don't know what that could have been and it dispersed quickly.
When I fired one of these at a 70's era sedan door the bullet did not penetrate the door breaking up on the window glass. It was obviously meant to create a hideous wound at the expense of penetration.
After Action Photos of dead Pouchers shot by Game Warders using the .303 in India and Africa show terrific wounds.
In one photo you could see through the hole in a guys chest and a survivor, a teenager from the look of him maybe fifteen lost all the flesh from his upper arm, the bone completely exposed.
Photos of the Rifle used accompanied the article on one incident, it was a very old and well kept No.1 with a decorative and functional wrapping of Purple cord around the grip. It belonged to a legendary Indian Game Warder who'd killed dozen of poachers during his long career.

The Poachers killed were hard cases who'd killed game wardens and witnesses in the past, one shooting being payback for the ambush of warders a few days earlier.

Those Bullets of the Mk VII which have steel jackets sometimes fracture at the canelure, this is due to brittleness of the metal. Some do most don't its an occasional manufacturing defect.
Copper Jacketed bullets can also fracture at the cannelure through "work hardening" of the metal. Before Bronze was invented Copper knives were made by hammering the edges till the material became compressed an work hardened enough to take an edge.
The broken away portion of the base of the jacket can lodge in a bore. This generall only causes a bulge or ring if the next bullet telescopes into it but if other conditions such as high pressure charges or the qualities of the bullet which telescopes there can be case ruptures or fractured bolt heads. Counter intuitively a weak charge can also result in a telescoped bullet being more likely to cause a high pressure spike. I'll have to find the article on the accident I mentioned earlier to explain that better. The Witness in that case was trying to use layman's terms so the jury could understand what he was talking about. Not sure if that case went to the Supreme Court ,if it did I might be able to do a search if I can remember the exact time frame between the time of the accident and the time of trial.

PS
When looking into historical facts I've found these old sayings come in handy.
"Time is a River"
"Time is the Fire in Which We Burn"
"History is lies Agreed upon"
The last being a skeptical rendering of the more accurate "history is the story agreed upon" or words to that effect.

Time only moves us in one direction. So the ammunition manufactured after WW1 was not used during WW1, but Ammunition both manufactured during WW1 and Ammunition manufactured in the same manner were used long after WW1.
Someone , perhaps it was Doc AV mentioned that some US manufactured .303 casings were defective and cracks appeared at the shoulder, I remember seeing some .303 cartridges with cracks at the shoulder but not the headstamp.
When they investigated the wreck of the Lusitania some .303 ammunition brought up from the wreck was displayed and the cases were in excellent condition. Afer decades on the sea floor that ammunition was cleaned up and polished to look like brand new ammo. No cracks were visible. If this fluke were taken to mean that no US manufactured ammunition could ever develop case shoulder cracks then it would defy known fact, just as the fluke of finding cordite that remained stable after decades on the seafloor suggesting that Cordite can not degrade in a hazrdous manner would defy the known fact of Cordite that became unstable in a relatively short time and exploded destroying naval vessels at anchor when no enemy action was involved. It would also go against very test and safety protocol of the British Military.
The Ship Breakers near where I lived in the Seventies occasionally found hidden compartments in seized and salvaged ships containing very old weapons and ammunition which smugglers had been intent on delivering to various rebel organizations. Conditions of the cargo ranged from very good to dangerous junk. Freight containers were found to contain everything from WW1 bolt action rifles of various types to more modern assault rifles.
You never can tell what will turn up.

I've seen what appeared to be lake City headstamped .30 Carbine ammo that had berdan primers and was loaded to a much higher pressure and velocity than the standard ammunition. I'm told this was a case of counterfiet black market ammunition given a respected headstamp to fool buyers. Sort of the Khyber pass of ammunition, though apparently made in China. We used to call that stuff the product of the ledgendary "Long CranK Arsenal". Suprizingly accurate and it functioned well in a Carbine that normally jammed often using fresh and properly manufactured ammunition.
 

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"Krinko,

I suggest that you save your typing fingers, like the rest of us.... LOL..."

Thunderbox,
Too true, too true.
Everybody gets two shots, had to offer the second.
-----krinko
 

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...

Good for you, Ed.
Don't rise so quickly to the bait in the future. Remember that satire and humor are hard to
express via a keyboard. On a particular thread, give a comment or two then let it go.
Buy some more Enfields. Have a shot of Chevas and a Merry Christmas.
And remember, Turkish Enfields need love, too!
 

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Gott sie Dank.

Now play nice.
 

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"Please keep in mind that this is the Lee Enfield Forum and not Sister Mary Margaret's Holy Cards For Correct Repetition Of The Catechism Forum."

What do you think that means, Ed?

For those of you without a Catholic background, Catechism Class was a "call and response" progarm for impressionable primary school youth.
The first call was "Who made me?".
The correct response was "God made me."
If you were to ask "Why did God make me?"---you would get the ruler and no Holy Card.

So in paraphrase, with the Bleu Cheese Dressing removed, my meaning is clear:
"This is the Lee Enfield Forum, where we seek the real answers, not someplace where the written word is repeated without question."

Too bad if such a statement offends anyone-----I'm not deleting it, there's no need. It is germaine to this thread and actually quite civil.

Further:
Ed,
If you have had an Epiphany, good for you---but if you are going to write inferences like this---"Mr. Krinko... we can’t have a recovery program in assholes anonymous with only one member, or are you in denial."-------don't schedule any play-dates just yet.
-----krinko
 

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Silent night, Holy night all is peace all is quiet.
Now all I want for Christmas is a Lee-Enfield sniper any # & Mk.:) Honest I've been good..... my wife said so.
 

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Very happy to see the olive branches on offer today:)

In the interest of future harmony, I will try to restrain myself from using Australian terms of phrase that may offend some people when participating in discussion on this forum.

I did say try...:eek:
 

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Whoever is responsible for making these boards fit for civilised technical debate, it is going to take more than you have tried so far. Looks like we are going to need this a while yet:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82858

There was no question of the lightweight tips in .303 bullet being designed to break up and cause more serious wounding, which would have been against the Hague and later Geneva Conventions. It was to provide a longer, more pointed tip, and thus superior long-range performance to the old round-nosed bullets of greater weight. The relatively humane wounding of the latter was well documented in arms design and military surgery textbooks, but was generally hailed as a good thing with no attendent disadvantage, since wounded men continuing to fight was rarer than Hollywood would have it.

Of course the bullets did keyhole very easily, and broke up at the tip. But then so do most of the bullets in use today, with similar effects. Breakup seems to be a byproduct of keyholing after impact, and most of the catastrophic wounding would be caused by one that keyholes and remains intact.

Up till now international law has concerned itself with means, such as core exposure or jacket slitting, a bullet might be deliberately designed to expand and cause excessive wounding. There is now a Swiss draft protocol of 1994 which seems to define it by energy loss in flesh, which may yet be used to minimise much unnecessary suffering.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMMA
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
Whoever is responsible for making these boards fit for civilised technical debate, it is going to take more than you have tried so far. Looks like we are going to need this a while yet:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82858

There was no question of the lightweight tips in .303 bullet being designed to break up and cause more serious wounding, which would have been against the Hague and later Geneva Conventions.
I'm talking about the POF with the black sealant.
Those bullets were most likely designed to break up.
Could be a manufacturing flaw I suppose but the lack of penetration and the consistency with which this particular batch fragmented like varmint rounds leads me to beieve it was deliberate.
The brown paper and brittle jackets just don't seem to me to have been an accident.

Oddly the same bullets punched neat mirror finished holes in thick I beam webs that looked like a laser beam had cut it.
The bullets completely vaporished and left a smear on the beam behind it.

As for the British designing the bullets they used to fragment, I'd say the original aluminum nose plug would speak against that sort of fragmentation being their goal, but I also don't think they really had an excuse to use the bullet knowing its effects.

It was to provide a longer, more pointed tip, and thus superior long-range performance to the old round-nosed bullets of greater weight. The relatively humane wounding of the latter was well documented in arms design and military surgery textbooks, but was generally hailed as a good thing with no attendent disadvantage, since wounded men continuing to fight was rarer than Hollywood would have it.

Of course the bullets did keyhole very easily, and broke up at the tip. But then so do most of the bullets in use today, with similar effects. Breakup seems to be a byproduct of keyholing after impact, and most of the catastrophic wounding would be caused by one that keyholes and remains intact.

Up till now international law has concerned itself with means, such as core exposure or jacket slitting, a bullet might be deliberately designed to expand and cause excessive wounding. There is now a Swiss draft protocol of 1994 which seems to define it by energy loss in flesh, which may yet be used to minimise much unnecessary suffering.

Not too long ago a particular 7.62 NATO bullet manufactured in Europe was banned for less cause.
It also had a work hardened brittle jacket but was otherwise of conventional construction, If anything that bullet was less damaging than the British bullet with aluminum nose.

BTW
The bullet that broke up in the door had penetrated one sheet metal panel.
When it hit the glass it was already damaged.
The bullet fragmented into tiny beads of lead and dust. The glass and bullet fragments hit the inside door panel like a small gauge shotgun blast but few fragments made it through the padded material. The door panel was bowed inwards by several inches.

This was a heavily constructed sedan.

I'll see if I can find the bullet I sectioned, I don't think Ikept the paper but I may still have the jacket.
The metal jacket was about half as thick as I'd expected it to be.

Only living thing I shot with this ammo was a large turtle that had been killing off all the fish in the pond on the land where we were shooting the owner asked us to get rid of it.
The Turtle was about as big as a head in a helmet.
When hit the shell jumped ten feet in the air and the turtle seemed to be turned into a mist. Of course there were probably fragments of flesh and bone every where but it looked like it had been vaporised.
 

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Too soon.....

I guess I spoke too soon. Good God, Ed.
Let it go.



Good for you, Ed.
Don't rise so quickly to the bait in the future. Remember that satire and humor are hard to
express via a keyboard. On a particular thread, give a comment or two then let it go.
Buy some more Enfields. Have a shot of Chevas and a Merry Christmas.
And remember, Turkish Enfields need love, too!
 

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With copper, gilding metal and brass, the commonest reason for brittleness would be work-hardening and insufficient annealing. Cupro-nickel, however, has a tendency to become brittle from annealing at temperatures only a little excessive. Since an arsenal skimping on annealing is more likely to have it show up in the cartridge case, I think overheating is more likely than not doing it.

The British had exactly the excuse the Americans have to use the current or previous M16 bullets, no more and no less. It was alarming, but not seen as being against the laws they had signed up to. This is debatable, as the definitive text in the agreement was the French one, in which "s'epanouissent" has more of a suggestion of any kind of spreading out, rather than just expansion. That might perhaps more reasonably have been interpreted to include breaking up, but almost everyone has chosen to interpret it differently.

Bullet cores are usually lubricated for the swaging process, and it has to be a lubricant with a very high flash-point, due to the pressures involved in the process. Modern swagers use lanolin, a byproduct of the wool industry, which didn't exist in India. So in wartime they might have used anything, and it might have caused that smell. Similarly there is a letter of Churchill's on record, to the Minister of Food I think, deploring the lack of an extra sugar ration to beekeepers, since British bees require an allowance of sugar syrup to get them through the winter after most of their honey has been taken. I don't know if the bees thereupon received special consideration, but it seems likely that beeswax supplies might have been restricted in wartime, resulting in a search for other substances to mix with it.

I had guessed that something quite different from the glass, which alone was mentioned, broke up the bullet. I knew someone who took grave harm from an olive once. A large number of martinis without did him no harm whatever, but it was the one with the olive that did for him.

This board has again degenerated into the disgraceful behaviour in which unsupported statements by some members doesn't even remotely resemble proof of anything. I don't believe anyone has insulted that British armourer, if he actually existed, and I don't care. If they did, it is a tiny part of what is wrong here.

I wish the moderators would realise that this board desperately needs a means of blocking personal messages. This is bad enough in public, but like other forms of indecent exposure, finding someone baring his mental aberrations to you alone is particularly unsavoury. Which may, of course, be the point.

Here is the text of that SFI link:

A Troll's Modus Operandi

Trolls are individuals who want to start a flamewar on a discussion forum. Some do it for attention; some need to feel a sense of power that they can direct a community's thinking or manipulate them into fighting one another. Some are self-important and have an unhealthy need to draw attention towards themselves and to be respected as an authority. Trolls can be self-blind to their own flaws and inaccurate information. Some feel obligated to always respond argumentatively, incriminating those who disagree with them.

The following is adapted for SFI from text by W. Beaty of amasci.com

Invariably a Troll will start a flamewar. First the Troll attacks another forumite unexpectedly. It happens because the Troll felt insulted (exquisite sensitivity to insults), but usually this insult was entirely in his/her own mind. But the Troll never considers that perhaps he made a mistake while interpreting the insult (no self-doubt), and he also sees a NEED to answer every insult with insults (vengeful, narcissistic.)

Having created a fight while blaming others for starting it, the Troll then lays into his victim amoraly and combatively, while seeing his own actions as a righteous battle against an evil enemy. If the victim seems hurt, the Troll will be disgusted by such weakness (amoral.) But if the victim responds in kind, the Troll will immediately complain bitterly about this, while steadfastly denying that the type of attacks he so hates are identical to the ones he's using himself (hypocrisy, self-serving bias.) If other subscribers object, the Troll ignores them as beneath contempt (egotistical), or because he KNOWS they must be wrong without even listening to their reasoning (no self-doubt.) Or perhaps he ignores them because he is certain that they have hidden agendas, and their complaints could only be false constructs meant to mislead. (denial/projection.)

The Troll typically ignores a moderator and refuses to alter his behavior, and can only be stopped by ejection from the forum. Sometimes Trolls attack the moderator in order to get ejected (and therefore feel smug righteousness at being "censored" or "martyred.") so that he can go to another website and use the ejection against that website and manipulate public opinion in his favor. A Troll will occasionally be shocked by being banned from a forum, and actually reconsider his behavior. But this is rare. Usually they're too far gone for this to penetrate their immense psychological defenses. They will refuse all responsibility for the problem (deceit, denial), blame it on the moderator or on the group for conspiring against them in private (paranoia), and totally refuse to look at their own mistakes in an honest light (denial, deceit, self-blind.)

Here is some more, with plenty of links which give insight into the illness.

http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html
 

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Hardly call it "WAR"

This is more like a petulant child having a HISSY FIT.
I've seen this type of behaviour before at my 4 year old daughter's preschool. "He started it" "No I didn't" "Yes you did"
The only difference there is the children know when its time to let it go and forget about it.
Danny
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 · (Edited)
With copper, gilding metal and brass, the commonest reason for brittleness would be work-hardening and insufficient annealing. Cupro-nickel, however, has a tendency to become brittle from annealing at temperatures only a little excessive. Since an arsenal skimping on annealing is more likely to have it show up in the cartridge case, I think overheating is more likely than not doing it.
Good information there, at last we are getting somewhere.

Bullet cores are usually lubricated for the swaging process, and it has to be a lubricant with a very high flash-point, due to the pressures involved in the process. Modern swagers use lanolin, a byproduct of the wool industry, which didn't exist in India. So in wartime they might have used anything, and it might have caused that smell.
The compressed paper nose filler would soak up residual lubricant. I remember thining at the time that the filler might be impregnated with a resin binder but the paper can out in tiny strips and shreds with nothing holding it together.
The British had exactly the excuse the Americans have to use the current or previous M16 bullets, no more and no less. It was alarming, but not seen as being against the laws they had signed up to. This is debatable, as the definitive text in the agreement was the French one, in which "s'epanouissent" has more of a suggestion of any kind of spreading out, rather than just expansion. That might perhaps more reasonably have been interpreted to include breaking up, but almost everyone has chosen to interpret it differently.
I never liked the idea of the early M16 bullets breaking up like that. The rifle wasn't intended for a long range role where the effect would be less terrible.
Probably wounds at longer ranges using the aluminum nosed bullet wouldn't have been as terrible.

Range makes a great deal of difference in penetration even when using AP.
At extreme close ranges the longer bullet is still yawing, it takes at least 50 yards to begin to stabilize. An AP bullet generally penetrates better at 200 yards than at ranges under 10 yards for this reason.

Similarly there is a letter of Churchill's on record, to the Minister of Food I think, deploring the lack of an extra sugar ration to beekeepers, since British bees require an allowance of sugar syrup to get them through the winter after most of their honey has been taken. I don't know if the bees thereupon received special consideration, but it seems likely that beeswax supplies might have been restricted in wartime, resulting in a search for other substances to mix with it.
I figure that by WW2 they'd already decided that the excessive deposits of resins at the throat and chamber neck were making it too difficult to get the bore really clean and chose to go to a neck sealant that left less deposits. The resins added to Cordite MD were doing a better job and burning away with each shot.
Some later propellant formulas reduced erosion further but were no ready to completely replace the propellants already in use and in storage. So some ammo used the black sealant and some didn't.

I had guessed that something quite different from the glass, which alone was mentioned, broke up the bullet. I knew someone who took grave harm from an olive once. A large number of martinis without did him no harm whatever, but it was the one with the olive that did for him.
Yeah you'd have to go through the outer sheet metal to get to the glass.
There are stamped reinforcements of even heavy and tougher steel but the bullet had not hit those.
When a bullet encounters successive layers of greatly different materials the effects are not easy to predict.

70's US Sedans are built like tanks compared to modern cars and most european cars.
Back in the early 90's some Kuwaitis came through here buying up a specific model of Chevolet to replace those Saddam's troops had stolen. Seems like it was the favorite of body guards over there. They'd asked about these at my Nieghbor's body shop offering top dollar and arranging complete overhauls and such, putting them back in showroom new condition.
I guess they were more familar with the design and had plenty of spares for that model still in stock. Probably it was a good body to armor up.

Found this book except that if correct would give an idea the sort of black market POF ammo still floating around.
Some of the POF stamped ammo may be counterfiet or assembled on scrapped cases.
http://books.google.com/books?id=M_...hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result
 

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The Troll typically ignores (...) and refuses to alter his behavior, and can only be stopped by ejection from the forum. Sometimes Trolls attack (...) in order to get ejected (and therefore feel smug righteousness at being "censored" or "martyred.") so that he can go to another website and use the ejection against that website and manipulate public opinion in his favor.
Reminds me *awfully* much of a certain Gunboards moderator of a certain forum... ah, but whatever. :D

I have been here from the very onset, and I can quite soberly (though sadly) state that Gunboards have certainly deteriorated with the overall fascicization of Bushist society - how could they be exempt from a general tide? Racists and right-wing nutcases are much more visible in Gunboards today than they were in the past. Very sad, that.

Carcano
 

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Cordite MD consists of Nitroglycerine, guncotton, and mineral jelly...period. Solventless Cordite (cordite SC), formulated after the war when RDB had proven unstable, had Carbamite added as a stabilizer...as it is still used in NC propellants for the same purpose today. The only resin added to Cordite that I've been able to find mention of. As a side note, they apparently didn't find the black stuff (whatever it is) too objectionable during WWII, as I've got '45 dated Royal Labs stuff with it around the case neck. I'll check the '50s dated Brit ammo I have when I get a chance.

The triple base cordite N and it's relatives, had nitroguanidine (sp?) added as the third base, which produces nitrogen when heated, both cooling the burn and reducing the flash...only used in naval guns as near as I can tell. They tried adding mineral jelly to the nitroguanidine to act as a lubricating barrel coating, but had no luck as it vaporized entirely upon firing...it did, however, act as an erosion moderator by the same mechanism used on cordite from the beginning...it modified the burn, making it less efficient (cooler).
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Cordite MD consists of Nitroglycerine, guncotton, and mineral jelly...period.
I'll get back to this as soon as I've finished checking the types of Hydrocarbons in Vaseline and whether any of these is a Hydrocarbon Resin.
Moderation of the temperatures and slowing the expansion of gases may have had the effect of leaving a hydrocarbon resin residue that would have had the effect noted in the alternating axite and cordite experiment.

I'd been thinking of this as a matter of additives but it may be a matter of natural contaminants. Few products are anywhere near chemically pure and mineral Jelly is a mixture of many hydrocarbons. Never heard of any 100% efficiency in any explosive or propellant even theoretically.
I just don't believe any explosive or propellant can leave no residue.

PS
I finally figured out how beets are connected to Russian Tallow. Russian Tallow had some superior qualities attributed to the fodder the Russians used for their cattle , dried vetgetables, and "Fodder Beets" was the main difference.
Could be the Beets had an effect on the fat at a molecular level.

I'd like to find out the exact formula used for the Cordite in late manufacture Dominion ammunition, down to the last detail.

The lanolin sealant/lube is something else I need to look into. Lanolin is a cleansing agent, but how it reacts at high temperatures I've never heard.
Odd but Alchemists called Lanolin "Baby Boy Fat" in their coded notebooks, which got a few of them in a lot of trouble if any children disappeared nearby when they were running their experiments.
 
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