[GunnerSam]

The sealant used in the Mk VII cartridge is variously described as "Beeswax" or an "Asphaltum".
The confusion is apparently due to the fact that sealants of this sort are almost always combinations of several constitutients.

The Treatise on Ammunition Page says this about the Mk VII cartridge.
"A cannelure is formed around the base and this is filled with Beeswax"

The Mk VI is also described as using a Beeswax lubricant/sealant.

Further on the illustration of .45 cartridge for the Nordenfelt gun shows a thick Beeswax Disc placed over the waxed card wad.

It is common for Bitumenous sealants and paints to contain Resins added to increase resistence to heat. The most heat resistent of these seems to be CNSL derived from Cashew Nut Shells which contains a formaldehyde resin.

Resin and Beeswax mixtures used since the time of the Ancient Egyptians are commonly mis-identifed as Asphaltum, which they closely resemble.

Now if one of the resident experts on the sealants used by the British Military would take the time to look up the exact composition of the sealant as aproved at various stages of development of the cartridge we can figure out just why the sealants are described both as Beeswax and as asphaltum. We can also find out which resins we are dealing with in cleaning bores.

 

[jrhead75]

Same document, pg. 50, Table 5...

Non-Combustible Compositions for Laboratory Stores.

Beeswax, composition
.......................lbs. oz.
Pitch, Swedish.... 16 8
Tallow, Russian .... 4 8
Beeswax .... .... 44 0
Resin.... .... .... 36 0

 

[GunnerSam]

Same document, pg. 50, Table 5...

Non-Combustible Compositions for Laboratory Stores.

Beeswax, composition
.......................lbs. oz.
Pitch, Swedish.... 16 8
Tallow, Russian .... 4 8
Beeswax .... .... 44 0
Resin.... .... .... 36 0

Thanks for your input, but I'm looking for the exact type of Resin, I already knew that Resin and wax were there. The Swedish pitch is interesting though.

It does appear that Beeswax makes up the greatest percentage of the compound. The "Swedish" Pitch may be the Bitumen eliment. The resin and Pitch together would give the material its black to dark brown coloring and the tallow would explain why it sometimes leaks past the wad to contaminate the propellant.
Excessive amonts of sealant introduced in manufacture would be why misfired ammo shows a large glop of the sealant rather than a simple smear around the case neck.
On several of the rifles I've detail cleaned the neck was coated thickly by a baked on residue of what I expect was this sealant forced back into the neck around the case neck.
I've had to carefully remove this deposit with a scraper made from brass tubing. If the build up is too thick this can cause excessive pressure by constricting the chamber neck not allowing the case neck to expand properly. The longer its there the harder it is to remove chamber brushes have little effect if the fouling is very old.

Knowing the exact type of resin would allow me to find the best solvent so less effort and minimise chances of damaging the chamber neck.
I've seen similar build up in Czech 7.62X25 pistols that were fired using what might be the SMG loading, and some SKS rifles.
The 7.62X25 cartridges I examined had resinous sealant leaking out of the case necks around the bullets.
Its likely that some eastern block countries that had experiance loading British ammo also used the same sealant.
The sealant used with a lower temperature propellant might lead to excessive build up.

 

[krinko]

I pulled several MkVII rounds apart, not counting several hundred POF in the past, looking for any bore coating compound and the photos show what I found.
Radway Green, Greenwood & Bately and Dominion all showed a tiny bit of wax in the cannelure groove of the bullet.
This was loaded over an absolutely dry, plain, layered paper disc, which was laid directly on top of the Cordite.
The wax collected from one bullet was incapable of being weighed on a powder scale with sensitivity of .1 grain.
Sorry I don't have the gas chromatograph going today---so this is all you get.
-----krinko

1.Headstamp
2.Down the Neck
3.layers of the paper disc
4.Bullet With Wax
5.Wax In the Scale Tray

 

[GunnerSam]

I pulled several MkVII rounds apart, not counting several hundred POF in the past, looking for any bore coating compound and the photos show what I found.

Then you've noticed the coating on the first one third of the bore on some enfields?
I suppose this is why you looked at all those rounds, looking for the source of the coating?

The POF rounds I broke down had a glob of the stuff in size about twice the size of a kitchen match head and the entire lower portion of the bullet was thickly coated.

The Dictionary of applied chemistry states that both wax and resin were added to the formula of Cordite MD as moderators to reduce temperature.

The Treatise on ammunition gives slightly different instructions for the Mk VI cartridge using more sealant and coating the lower part of the jacket.

Some other loadings of larger caliber cartridges used a thick disc of "wax" over the card wad.

Its possible that when they decided to add wax and resin to the formula they cut back on the use of the over the wad disc and extra sealant.
The wax and resin that settles out in the leade must mostly come from the propellant itself when firing those cartridges which used MD propellant.

Older marks and indifferently loaded cartridges like some POF possibly used too much sealant. Quality probably varied greatly during wartime.

Radway Green, Greenwood & Bately and Dominion

Those seem to be the better quality loadings , are they not?
Haven't heard of Greenwood and Bately.

all showed a tiny bit of wax in the cannelure groove of the bullet.
This was loaded over an absolutely dry, plain, layered paper disc, which was laid directly on top of the Cordite.

The card wad in the POF was fairly thick and glazed in some manner, the Teatise on ammunition calls for a glazed wad.
The wax collected from one bullet was incapable of being weighed on a powder scale with sensitivity of .1 grain.[/quote]
Not at all like those I've opened up.

Sorry I don't have the gas chromatograph going today---so this is all you get.
-----krinko

1.Headstamp
2.Down the Neck
3.layers of the paper disc
4.Bullet With Wax
5.Wax In the Scale Tray

No problemo.

There is a Nitrocellulose component of the propellant The higher temperature of the nitroglycerine may tend to bake on residue that would otherwise be easier to remove if a single base propellant were used.

Turbulence in the gases as the volumne increases and pressure drops drives gases and accompanying oxides of nitrogen into the microscopic fissures of the surface, increasing chemical erosion by nitric acids as well as thermal erosion.
According to the Encyclopedia of Science and Technology
and the Treatise on ammunition

Solids soak up heat cooling the gases,
Dictionary of applied chemistry
if they are already baked onto the leade they have no further effect in moderating temperatures and reducing thermal damage.

Resins deposited on the leade would form an ablative shield.

Like I've said not all Cordites were created equal, use of ammunition with very different qualities produces very different patterns of wear.

Looks like those cartridges with the least sealant erode more just in front of the chamber and don't exhibit as much difference in progression of the erosion as cartridges which used greater amounts of the sealant.

Like most such discoveries the heat shielding properties of the baked on resin were not by design but by chance and discovered by observation of effects then working back to find the causation.

Using less sealant gave more erosion but in a more acceptable pattern with less fouling.
Instead of the egg shaped void Hiram maxim reported the erosion tapered the bore.

The hard black fouling that caused stoppages of the RAF machineguns, and the redesign, might have been from the moderators in the formula rather than the sealant.


So the rifles I've examined which had the pattern of erosion I spoke of were likely used mostly with pre Mk VII loadings or poorly manufactured Mk VII equivalent loadings.

 

[GunnerSam]

As JR already noted

Same document, pg. 50, Table 5...

Non-Combustible Compositions for Laboratory Stores.

Beeswax, composition
.......................lbs. oz.
Pitch, Swedish.... 16 8
Tallow, Russian .... 4 8
Beeswax .... .... 44 0
Resin.... .... .... 36 0

The same basic formula is used to coat metal when acid etching, I've used it myself many years ago.

The built up residue would do little against corosive primer salts but would offer some protection against acid vapor wash and gas corrosion.
It would take many rounds fired to give any noticable build up.
The older Mk VI loading used somewhat more sealant

This was what someone else recently termed a Bituminous Sealant, and another on the board termed an Asphaltum, if the Swedish pitch is anything like the Spanish betún de Judea then the compound is not unlike that used by the Egyptians.

As noted the compound is both a sealant and a lubricant.
Its protective properties towards acids was well known, its value as an ablative heat shield was a beneficial side effect.

 

[GunnerSam]

This is how Tony E described the sealant.

this is a bituminous sealant place in the neck of the case

On another thread I believe it was Doc AV that described it as asphalt or asphaltum.

Glazed board is probably the correct term for the wad that Krinko described as

plain, layered paper disc

Variations in production according to year of manufacture no doubt.

The POF wad looked to be a cardboard.

 

[danhar1960]

Ok..Here's the good info !!!!

The "Goop" or "Swedish Pitch" or "Bitumin" you all seek is really


VEGEMITE !!!



There, now you all know. Whats your next problem ????
Danny

 

[GunnerSam]

As for the RAF machineguns

Found on AXIS History Forum
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=17075&p=150136

As for the RAF guns

In 1933, at the request of the US Army Air Corps, two 7.62 mm (0.300 in) versions of the 12.7 mm (0.50 in )M2 were produced. The first was a pilot's gun, while the second, the M9/402, was designed as a pivoted observer's gun with a higher rate of fire and longer barrel length. Just after these guns had been produced, the RAF decided to hold competitive trials to select a modern automatic gun. The guns tested were the Vickers, Hotchkiss, Darne, Madsen and the Colt MG40 and MG40/2. The winner was the Colt 40/2, which proved the to have the best all round performance.

Once the gun had been selected, the Martlesham Heath gun section under Major Adams conducted Service trials. It was found that the cordite-filled 7.7 mm (0.303 in) cartridges used in Britain caused serious trouble (most countries used nitrocellulose propellent, which was less sensitive to heat than cordite). When a long burst was fired a round remained in the chamber, and the cordite then detonated. Major Adams redesigned the action to hold the breech-block to the rear with the chamber empty. The first trials of production guns from BSA showed a weakness in the feed. This meant a further extensive redesign, until the final gun was quite different from the MG40/2.

The Browning gun was the first in RAF use to have the facility of adjusting the barrel in relation to the breech-block. Some armourers adjusted the barrel too far forward, leaving too much of the case protruding from the barrel, so that the end of the round was blown off causing a 'separated case' stoppage. With experience this problem was overcome, and durng the Battle of Britain, if a fighter returned from a sortie with a separated case stoppage the armourer responsible was put on a charge. Trouble was also caused by excessive fouling of the muzzle attachment, the guns seizing after about 200 rounds. A sharp pen-knife seemed the best way to clear the hard residue. In 1940 BSA redesigned the muzzle attachment by adding cooling fins and chromium-plating the bore of the unit. This modification caused a hold-up to production at a vital period, but the gun could then fire 300 and more rounds without fouling. After the troubles were rectified, production at BSA, Vicker-Armstrongs and sub-contractors kept up with the demands of the Service (one Hurricane and Stirling needed 16 guns).

The text and photos were taken from "British Aircraft Armament Vol. 2: RAF Guns and Gunsights), by R Wallace Clarke.

The Resinous wax asphaltum compound has already been identifed as well as the presence of wax and resin as moderation additives of Cordite MD.
Its also established that Mk VI ammunition used significantly more sealant and Gardner gun ammo used an entire disc of the sealant placed between bullet base and card wad.

As the page on the ammunition above shows "Straw Board" wadds were substituted for glaze board at some point. Substitution of components is not that uncommon.

 

[danhar1960]

Technology ???

Just how did you guys get by before CUT & PAST

Danny

 

[GunnerSam]

Just how did you guys get by before CUT & PAST

Danny

Necessary here, too much information to type an nobody seems to read linked to pages and information.

 

[GunnerSam]

Are you claiming that you can get better accuracy than Major Reynolds could with a far less worn No.4 using freshly manufactured Mk VII ammunition?

Major Reynolds wrote of a test on a No.4 with early stages of cordite bore erosion that was very innaccurate using Mk VIIZ ammunition but described by him as extremely accurate using Mk VII ammunition getting four inch groups at 200 yards, which would be a hair less than two MOA.

Two MOA from a respected marksman using a rifle of that type and ammunition of that type during WW2 was pretty good shooting.

If not for your previous attempts to mislead readers including your bogus posting about US Navy use of Cordite as a propellant in 1957, one easily disproved by any who chose to actually read the document you linked to, I might be less inclined to believe that the thirty caliber pencil was at work rather than mythical ammunition that shoots better after forty years in storage or more than when freshly manufactured, or rifles that shoot better when worn out than when in reasonably new condition.

2C2. Smokeless powder manufacture

The smokeless powder used by the United States Navy is a uniform ether-alcohol colloid of carefully purified nitrocellulose to which is added a small quantity of diphenylamine to assist in preserving the chemical stability of the powder. The principal raw materials used in the manufacture of United States Navy smokeless powder are:

As for the terminology question, since everyone else posting on the subject has used terminology different from that of the treatise and manuals.

Pedantic:

Like a pedant, overly concerned with formal rules and trivial points of learning; Being showy of one’s knowledge, often in a boring manner; Often used to describe a person who emphasizes his/her knowledge through the use of vocabulary; ostentatious in one’s learning; Being finicky or picky ...

The use of the Term "Beeswax" when "Beeswax Compound" was the most descriptive term led you to assume that there were no other ingrediants in the sealant. Terms are not always fully descriptive, they often are a clipped description and can lead to confusion.

As the only useful information you finally did post points out the Cartridge went through many stages of development, and substitutions of components and improved formulas resulted in differing amounts of erosion and fouling characteristics.

 

[GunnerSam]

From "the Gun and its Development" 1907.

Axite." — ' Axite " is the name of a powder made by Kynoch, Limited, for use
in military and sporting rifles. Besides the usual ingredients of Cordite, viz. guncotton,
cotton, nitro-glycerine, and vaseline, it contains some hydro-carbons and mineral
ingredients for the purpose of controlling the combustion and of lubricating the
barrel. It is made up in the form of a tape, to enable higher velocities to be
obtained with less pressure than is possible with strand Cordite. By keeping down
the pressure and the temperature of combustion by the addition of special
ingredients, combined with a scientific shape of the strip or tape, the erosion
of the barrel is much diminished and its life is correspondingly increased.
The lubricating effect of the slight deposit left by " Axite " has been publicly
demonstrated by firing "Cordite" cartridges alternately with "Axite" cartridges,
when it was shown that the Cordite cartridges gave a considerably higher velocity
of about 100 f.s. than when fired by themselves. The lubricant deposited in the
bore by the combustion of Axite has also a marked effect in preventing the subsequent
rusting of the barrel.

Which confirms that the increases in additives to later formulas of Cordite Propellents resulted in an ablative layer of resins in the leade. A layer which would build up according to the number of rounds fired, as the amounts and types of additves incred the level of protection extended further down the bore.

Go back up to Krinkos photos and show me some crud or resin goop.

Specious argument as we've already determined that not all Mk VII ammunition used the same type or amount of sealant.
The treatise on Ammunition is useful in that it proves that greater amounts of resinous sealants were used earlier on, and likely were used till the end of Mk VII ammunition production according to where the ammunition was manufactured.


PS
NO WW2 manufactured ammunition was used in WW1, a Great many collectable no.1 Rifles were used in WW1.
Due to the widespread manufacture and remanufacture of Mk VII ammunition and ammunition supplied to allies there are No.4 Rifles like my own which did end up using ammunition loaded in the manner of WW1 Ammunition Just as many WW1 rifles ended up being fired with highly errosive pre WW1 Cordite Mk I loaded ammunition..
All Cordite Loaded Ammunition is Erosive, some less than others but the erosion problem was never licked despite reformulations. All Cordite loaded Ammunition bathes the bore with Oxides of nitrogen which leads to nitric acid etching, there was never a cure for that.

The treatise on Ammunition undermined your position but you never realized it.
I never claimed to be an Expert on the subject of Cordite, but you seem to have set yourself up, in your own mind at least, to believe that you are.
Your skimming over the materials without really reading them is why you deluded yourself into cliaming that the US Navy was Using Cordite in its guns in 1957.

The subjects under discussion on this forum are vintage military rifles , rifles that deserve a modicum of respect for their age. Ammunition is like the gasoline in your car, it gets used up and is gone, but the cars engine will be damaged to a greater or lesser extent by the quality of the fuel used.
Some Milsurp ammunition if stored properly is nearly as good as the day it was made, but millions of rounds produced at the same time period have been culled and destroyed as unsafe and you could buy a box of ammo that looked fresh and clean which spent the week end in the store room of a gunshop whose circuit breaker tripped on the hottest day of the year and the nitroglycerine sweated out into the casings.
If NC propellants degrade they don't blow up battle ships.
You should read up on the chain fire sympathetic detonation tests on British ammunition cases sometime. Some pretty impressive craters.

In looking through available sources I found two other cases of Bolt Heads shattering from excessive pressures, One involved a worn No.4 rifle fired using a European manufactured Mk VIIIz type ammunition , not enough detail in that etry to been certain of the cause but the discussion there was on the effect of cordite errosion in creating a condition that resulted in excessive blowby when boat tail ammunition was later used. One No. 4 rifle with little wear had no problem other than lessened accuracy, the other shattered its bolt head and blew out its extractor. They didn't say whether the bullet had lodged in the bore or not.

The earlier the manufacture of the ammunition the greater the problem of erosion would be.
The longer the ammunition sits after its shelf life expired decades ago the more likely its been subjected to high temperatures that degrade the propellant in the most dangerous ways possible, sweating of liquid nitro glycerine.

Its Specious to pretend that no resinous neck sealant had ever been used because a number of loadings used a different sealant.
I don't doubt Krinko when he says he's opened some POF ammunition and did not find the same resious sealant, POF ammunition varies greatly in quality, from round to round much less crate to crate, though by all accounts unreliable.

Some believe bore erosion can not produce an unsafe condition, apparently because they believe excessive pressures have to burst the barrel in order to injure or kill.
The Instructions to Armorers is explicit in the condemnation of excessively worn or bulged barrels for a reason, discipline and attention to detail prevented accidents.
My suggestion that bores be examined in detail using an optical aid or bore scope stands. Examination of the mid bore is most important because fissures and cracks there are not easily visible from either muzzle or breech. Removal of all metal fouling before examining the bore is necessary in order to actually see what you are dealing with.
Better safe than sorry, and suggesting that excessive erosion is nothing to be concerned about is what the courts would call depraved indifference and criminally negligent homicide should someone take such advice and have a fatal accident.

 

[DocAV]

Confusion on Terminology

Over the long time of .303 mark VII production, a variety of Wads, Sealants, and assembly methods have been used, each noted in official texts correct for their time, but not to be taken as "Gospel" but rather a guide to the general progression of Ammo development.

Also, one must not take "Literally" some of the nomenclature, as meanings do (and have) changed over time. The use of "common" names, rather than the correct international chemical terminology is a constant source of confusion in old texts.

Names like "Swedish Pitch" ( ?made from retorting Pine stumps, or similar?) and "Russian Oil" ( from Baku, and suitable for immediate use as a lubricant in guns, just like "Rangoon Oil") are common in older texts...even the simple term "BeesWax" can mean different things to different people.

Getting back to the neck seal/lubricant question. Early (up to WW II) Mark VII projectiles(those with a low level cannellure for stab crimping) had a ring of Beeswax ( Cerum Apis melifera) applied; the sealant apllied over the wad (Paper card or "strawboard") was for waterproofing, and it was basically a compounded "mixture of Pitch,Wax and resins" which should solidify on drying, giving an impervious seal. It was applied by a mechanical "dropper" stick ( a "glob" of determined size/volume/weight sufficient to run up the sides of the bullet as the neck was formed around it.)
Of course, improper regulation of "glob" size could result in excess sealant going down through the wad and into the cordite. (Pressure of production, improperly trained "glob setters", too much solvent in the mixture...any number of variables.)

As ammo was made in ever larger quantities, (during WW II) the cost and availablility of a lot of the "ingredients" of this "bituminous" sealant ( term used adjectively, not specifically)
made manufacturers look for simpler and cheaper solutions. It was found that amongst other things, simple "Tar" ( or ashphalt or bitumen), either natural (Trinidad) or refinery derived, was good enough, if softened with a hydrocarbon solvent for ease of application.
This was used from the 1940s to end of production, and in some countries, carried over to 7,62 Nato production.

BTW, the ring of Beeswax was deleted in 1944-45, when the Stab crimp was deleted (replaced by the Mouth crimp, and shifting of the cannelure).

THis "Tarring and Waxing" was a typically British malaise, as European makers of .303 ammo ( all Granular Powder loaded) used either a simple neck lacquer (usually a "Duco" type nitrocellulose lacquer) or none at all. [ "Duco" was ( and is) a Dupont Trademark of Nitrocellulose based-Auto varnishes, made by dissolving NC in solvents, and applying it in many layers as a carbody finish...its level of "Nitration" was lower than that of NC Powders, so it was less "explosive"...also the other ingredients, such as Pigment etc, also reduced the flammability of the compound when dried...in Liquid form, it was just as combustible as normal Motor Fuel.

"Duco" == "Dupont Compound" varnish.

All of these "Sealants, Lubricants, etc" derived from a time when they were necessary for Black Powder loads ( Plain lead bullets, use in tropical climes, etc), and true to British Military tradition, they remained in place long after any real need for them actually existed, or after simpler and cheaper methods had been developed....

And to be a cause of great argument to the members of this board.

A lot of the supposedly "perceived" problems were just in the eyes of the observers, and did not affect battlefield reliability at all. As to the Browning MG problems, there could (were) be some problems, as the pressure development curves of Cordite are different from those of NC Powder, and that would affect the barrel recoil cycle, just as the "Port pressure" question affected where the Bren Gun eventually had its gas take-off hole. (Not that it eventually affected Bren performance with Nitrocellulose loaded ammo...Canada made millions (Billions) of rounds of Boxer 7z ammo during WW II, and continued using Berdan cases afterwards.(DIz, and 1950s DAC 7z).

WE do "Know" the following "facts" about Cordite vs. NC loaded ammo:
1. Cordite-fed barrels wear quicker and differently from NC-fed ones.

2. Cordite erosion was initially ascribed to "heat" and composition of original Cordite used;
a secondary cause, Ground Glass used in the priming Compound as a friction agent, was soon eliminated from priming compounds. Hence the development of the (Relatively) Cooler burning Cordite MDT.
This problem was still not eliminated, as shown by the tests with Cordite-loaded .276 Enfield P13 ammunition ( even more erosive that .303), and the WW II experience with Mark VIIIz ammo in Vickers Guns.

3. Wartime exigencies led to the change from "Glazed" carboard wad ( quite an involved manufacturing process) to simple and cheaper "Strawboard" wads ( using Wheat Straw, a relatively cheap material...an early form of "Green recycling", perhaps?)...
the same change was made from Aluminium nose plugs to Compressed Fibre ( less costly, I don't know what the "Fibre" was, probably some type of Wood or Cotton waste, compressed under heat and a binding agent, like hardwood "Masonite")...it is known that when WW I ended, they reverted to Aluminium plugs, but went to Fibre again in WW II...and remained so.

4. The Composition of the "sealant" changed with time and economies and place of manufacture. The various Publications give only a "Time Window" look at the situation as officially recorded. Confusion arises from our interpretation of the terminology used (Common terms against Trade and Scientific terms).
"ie, Resin, Bitumen,Ashphalt, Pitch" mean different things to different users, and to the general public; the Egyptian reference was to the result of 4,000 years of consolidation of the mixture of Natural Wood resins(saps), Mineral Bitumens ( out of "oil soaks") and Distillation products ( from tree stumps etc.) and other natural products, such as BeesWax ( the Bee was a Royal Symbol in Ancient Egypt, and a source of a large part of the medical cures of the time.

What was compared was the appearance of the dried resinous black mass found in Mummy wrappings with the compounds used for sealing not only ammunition from the rigours of a tropical climate.

5.A word to the Wise.... the problem is a Historical one....No one makes Cordite-loaded ammo any more, and existing stocks of pre-1970s Cordite loaded Mark VII will soon be exhausted by the insatiable US market. Any that is found is likely to be either "Dud" (primers failed) or "cracked" ( cases failed), or so old that our "Nanny State" Explosives regs prohibit the sale of it or import ( at least in Australia).

So by all means , have a well mannered debate on the why's and wherefore's of the Cordite question, but keep it Civil and Well Referenced..

BTW, my references are the direct examination of the cartridges themselves...the final arbiter of any question.... (Just like Gun variations...it is the item which defines the answer, not an old book or record, which is a (good) guide in most cases, and sometimes. unhappily, a red herring.).

Happy Shooting, Collecting, Reloading, etc.

And a Merry Festive season, whether it is Christmas, Hannukah, Festival of Lights, Eid, or Saturnalia...or just a rest from work....

See you all in the New Year, with new findings and disquisitions.....

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

 

[TonyE]

.303

Well stated Doc. You beat me to it on a few points, namely that the waterproofing changed from a beeswax compound to the black bitumin type around 1940, and the fact that UK 7.62mm NATO rounds used the same waterproofing compound as that in .303.

Since British 7.62mm was loaded with one or another type of Rifle Neonite from the start, why did it need the so called "heat protecting resin"?

Regards
TonyE

 

[RH7777]

Doc Av. Thanks for your input.

I know little about cordite, but even I could figure out that these arguments were on a merry go around because of terminology and older literature.

For whatever reason, some folks follow books to the letter, instead of using common sense and looking at the item in question for problems. Your mention of that will probably be ignored by some, but that is the REAL bottom line.

#5 and the comments below it sums it up well.

This is close to what my gunsmith told me about cordite from the git go.

His words from my first Enfield purchase was what I used as a guide when using cordite in Enfields in the many years after.

POF was trashed. It is still available in quantity here in the U.S. and catches a lot of unsuspecting buyers. We had so many problems with it, that we gave up on it.



Cordite is not that common in the U.S. anylonger IMO. I know of only one dealer that has the Brittish cordite, and they supply the other small dealers.

We still use it, as mentioned earlier, but never in rifles we like to preserve the like new bores on. Just not worth the risk of increasing bore wear, when other options are available.

Also, as mentioned earlier, but completely ignored, we heat the rounds by leaving the in the sun to reduce the "click, bang" It works.

One of the most popular options for relatively cheap .303. We have our expert hand loaders use the bullets and powder from Bulgarian or other surplus 7.62X54R on the market and load it into good .303 brass. Works great, and is accurate if done right.
Lots of surplus 54R on the market and we bought it at under a dime per round in quantity, years ago. It is still relatively cheap compared to .303.

I suspect the surplus Brit. cordite ammo from the large dealer will also dry up in the near future. Then the whole issue will be moot, unless some importer finds more.

I can't relate to folks that would want to shoot rifles with near shot out bores or any anomilies in the barrel.

There would be an accuracy issue.

As well as possible safety issues. All CIA rifles were tagged. with a warning that a qualified gunsmith should inspect the rifles before firing. A lot of people ignore that warning. So GunnerSams "angst" is not that far fetched.

It just doesn't make sense, when rifles with good bores are still available for just over $100. We used to get Enfields from CIA for under $100 by the pallet full, all with good bores if ordered in VG or better. This was years ago.

They are OK to "collect" if they have bore issues, but not shoot IMO.

This is a "from the trenches" type of view of cordite.

It will be interesting to see who actually reads and comprehends your post.

Thanks again, and have a Happy, Happy.

For the cut and paste crowd, that will undoubtily find fault with something that I posted.
Have a Merry, Merry, in your next lifetime.

 

[mr303]

Things I know about cordite:

1 I still have hundreds of cordite .303 rounds.
2 It still goes bang when I pull the trigger.
3 It is harsh on barrels.
4 All cordite ammo has corrosive primers
5 I will never reload using cordite.
6 What was the board disc made of? Who cares.
7 What was the wax coating for? Who cares.

 

[JollyGreenSlugg]

Things I know about cordite:

1 I still have hundreds of cordite .303 rounds.
2 It still goes bang when I pull the trigger.
3 It is harsh on barrels.
4 All cordite ammo has corrosive primers
5 I will never reload using cordite.
6 What was the board disc made of? Who cares.
7 What was the wax coating for? Who cares.

I'll second that.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[GunnerSam]

Well stated Doc. You beat me to it on a few points, namely that the waterproofing changed from a beeswax compound to the black bitumin type around 1940, and the fact that UK 7.62mm NATO rounds used the same waterproofing compound as that in .303.

Since British 7.62mm was loaded with one or another type of Rifle Neonite from the start, why did it need the so called "heat protecting resin"?

Regards
TonyE

Didn't say it did.
Barrel life using Neonite Nitrocellous single based propellant only was reported as from 30,000 up to 50,000 rounds.
I ran across this article with input from recognized authorities only the other day while searching for some thing else. If I can find it again I'll scan and post it.
Theres some interesting information on the exact specifications of the FAL bore in british service at the time.
If theres a similar sealant used with the British NATO ammunition that might have actually added to bore life, though not a primary reason.

Bitumenous sealants have very much the same composition as the Beeswax with Swedish Pitch and resin compounds. Not sure but I think Russian Tallow is exacted from Beets rather than an animal fat.
I've used a similar material when acid etching aluminum plates.

The source of the "Resin" is what I'm most interested in, If CNSL that would explain its resistence to high temperatures.

I trust the bore shielding effect of resinous deposits either from the early lube/sealant or from the resins added to MD and later formulas is accepted.

 

[krinko]

"I trust the bore shielding effect of resinous deposits either from the early lube/sealant or from the resins added to MD and later formulas is accepted."

Accepted, Gunner?
When I am done with this last lot of Dominion, I'll have had about 1500 rounds of .303 Cordite ammunition fired by my hand.....and I have never seen any "deposits".
How can I accept the "bore shielding" properties of something that does not exist?

Please keep in mind that this is the Lee Enfield Forum and not Sister Mary Margaret's Holy Cards For Correct Repetition Of The Catechism Forum.
-----krinko