Confusing No.5 Mk1 wrist markings

1072 Views 61 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Lyman1903, 4 h ago

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · 5 d ago (Edited)

10

I picked up a bucket list item the other day, but I am a bit confused on the stampings on the wrist. From what I know the single prefix letter R should be a Fazakerley batch number, but the manufacturer code M 47C indicates it was

made in Shirley by the Birmingham, small arms factory. This No.5 has all of the correct lightning cuts present and is matching except for the magazine which is common. It happens to be a Savage, so I lucked out. Underneath the ENGLAND import stamp I can make out just barely what I believe to be the original Shirley serial number BB 2665. It also has a British proof mark from when it was sold out of service. There is a disk on the butt stock, which I believe may be Malaysian military or police. Any information on this rifle would be wonderful as I am running into dead ends, trying to figure out the stamping on the wrist.
Thank you for looking and reading this far and as always be well and stay safe.
Cheers!

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Alan De Enfield

· #41 · 4 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
best I can do ATM
View attachment 4112462

What we need to know is the letter/number in each quadrant of the /crossed 'swords', this gives the month and year it was prooved.

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #42 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
What we need to know is the letter/number in each quadrant of the /crossed 'swords', this gives the month and year it was prooved.

I’ll try to see if I can’t take a better picture

milprileb

· #43 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
What we need to know is the letter/number in each quadrant of the /crossed 'swords', this gives the month and year it was prooved.

I hope this info surfaces as it will be a serious clue. Hats off to you Alan, you are tenacious !

Reactions: 1

staffy

· #44 · 4 d ago

Did it go to Malaysia? - the butt disc is slender evidence of it having been there.

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #45 · 4 d ago

staffy said:
Did it go to Malaysia? - the butt disc is slender evidence of it having been there.

I can see no evidence of it being in Malaysia, other than there is some corrosion on some of the metal. The butt pad is in great shape.

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #46 · 4 d ago

This is a close-up of the crossed pendants.

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #47 · 4 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
I can see no evidence of it being in Malaysia, other than there is some corrosion on some of the metal. The butt pad is in great shape.
[/QUOTEsi vis pacem, para bellum]

Alan De Enfield

· #48 · 4 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
This is a close-up of the crossed pendants.

Sorry, I cannot see what they are.

Maybe the magnification is too great - can you get an impression / idea (not a picture) of what the markings maybe just 'by-eye' and tilting it to get different light and shade ?
Do you have any chalk you can dust across the markings, then blow off the surplus.

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #49 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
Sorry, I cannot see what they are.

Maybe the magnification is too great - can you get an impression / idea (not a picture) of what the markings maybe just 'by-eye' and tilting it to get different light and shade ?
Do you have any chalk you can dust across the markings, then blow off the surplus.

My impression is that the left one is K. The one in the middle below the cross pendants looks to be a 5 and the circle on the right best guess may be an 8(hard to make out) but I’m gonna see if I can get some chalk on it later and work some magic.

Reactions: 1

Alan De Enfield

· #50 · 4 d ago (Edited)

If it is a K (left hand side) and a B (right hand side) with a 5 below, then is was inspected / tested / prooved by Inspector Number 5 in the year 1959

I think the possibility of it being in Malaysia is unlikely. Anyone could have just fitted a 'roundel' and a rifle can corrode pretty much anywhere in the world.

Latest suggestion for its history.

Sold out of service into the UK civilian gun trade in 1959
Imported in to the US between 1959 and 1968
Original bolt not fitted after arrival in the US, Fazakerley bolt installed by the "Saturday boy"
Saturday boy overstamped the BSA Serial number with the import stamp.
Boss man says "don't worry, just mark it up with the number on the bolt"

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #51 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
If it is a K (left hand side) and a B (right hand side) with a 5 below, then is was inspected / tested / prooved by Inspector Number 5 in the year 1959

How would a G on the right change things?

Alan De Enfield

· #52 · 4 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
How would a G on the right change things?

It would be a 'forgery' as it shouldn't (doesn't) exist.

Reactions: 1

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #53 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
It would be a 'forgery' as it shouldn't (doesn't) exist.

Just checking to make sure it wasn’t a possibility

JB White

· #54 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
If it is a K (left hand side) and a B (right hand side) with a 5 below, then is was inspected / tested / prooved by Inspector Number 5 in the year 1959

I think the possibility of it being in Malaysia is unlikely. Anyone could have just fitted a 'roundel' and a rifle can corrode pretty much anywhere in the world.

Latest suggestion for its history.

***Sold out of service into the UK civilian gun trade in 1959
Imported in to the US between 1959 and 1968***
Original bolt not fitted after arrival in the US, Fazakerley bolt installed by the "Saturday boy"
Saturday boy overstamped the BSA Serial number with the import stamp.
Boss man says "don't worry, just mark it up with the number on the bolt"

I have a problem with that. We cannot ignore the facts presented

A: those discs did show up on Malaysian rifles.
Or, they arrived from a second source at the exact same time.

B: If it entered the US prior to 1968, why is it import marked a second time in a format which wasn’t devised until the import ban was lifted 20 years later?

Reactions: 2

DisasterDog

· #55 · 3 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
Imported in to the US between 1959 and 1968

The Century Arms import mark says post-‘68.

Reactions: 1

JB White

· #56 · 3 d ago

DisasterDog said:
The Century Arms import mark says post-‘68.

The Century mark on the barrel is not only post-68, it’s also post 1986.
I discovered similar barrel markings in the 90’s into 2000.
That was before ATF issued the dictum the markings belonged on the receiver.

Reactions: 2

DisasterDog

· #57 · 3 d ago

JB White said:
The Century mark on the barrel is not only post-68, it’s also post 1986.
I discovered similar barrel markings in the 90’s into 2000.
That was before ATF issued the dictum the markings belonged on the receiver.

IIRC, Century moved from St. Albans in the mid-‘90s?

Alan De Enfield

· #58 · 3 d ago

DisasterDog said:
The Century Arms import mark says post-‘68.

But the "ENGLAND" import mark is pre 1968.

My L42A1 was sold to the US (as the UK banned the sale of the L42 to UK citzens), and I bought it 'back' from the US.
If I now sold it back to the US, presumably it would now be marked to current import markings requirement ?
And could then have 'duplicate' import markings from differing time periods.

I'm guessing that when I sold an Enforcer to the US (a few years ago) it would have been marked with relevant import markings of the period.

JB White

· #59 · 3 d ago

We know what ENGLAND means and why and when. Nobody is arguing that. What we also know is they could have been marked on the British side of the pond before shipping.

Even though it was already import marked. IF it had been diverted only to come over later after the ban was lifted it would be marked with the rest of the batch. According to the later legal requirements requiring all the additional info. Having only the country of origin is no longer lawful for foreign military surplus firearms.

JB White

· #60 · 3 d ago

DisasterDog said:
IIRC, Century moved from St. Albans in the mid-‘90s?

I don’t know. I asked that question a short while back without it being addressed.

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