Confusing No.5 Mk1 wrist markings

1090 Views 61 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Lyman1903, 6 h ago

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · 6 d ago (Edited)

10

I picked up a bucket list item the other day, but I am a bit confused on the stampings on the wrist. From what I know the single prefix letter R should be a Fazakerley batch number, but the manufacturer code M 47C indicates it was

made in Shirley by the Birmingham, small arms factory. This No.5 has all of the correct lightning cuts present and is matching except for the magazine which is common. It happens to be a Savage, so I lucked out. Underneath the ENGLAND import stamp I can make out just barely what I believe to be the original Shirley serial number BB 2665. It also has a British proof mark from when it was sold out of service. There is a disk on the butt stock, which I believe may be Malaysian military or police. Any information on this rifle would be wonderful as I am running into dead ends, trying to figure out the stamping on the wrist.
Thank you for looking and reading this far and as always be well and stay safe.
Cheers!

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DisasterDog

· #21 · 5 d ago

JB White said:
The 3/4” disc on the right side also appeared during the Malaysian surplus sell-off in the early 2000’s.
Yours has a pre-1968 US import marking. Makes me wonder if Malaya released surplus so shortly after the Emergency?

Or if Malaysia purchased any on the open market from an importer like Interarms.

Interestingly, there’s one just posted to the WTS today with the same stock disc & Century import mark, but no England stamp & no apparent Nitro Proofs.

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/wts-1946-jungle-carbine.1242219/

Alan De Enfield

· #22 · 5 d ago

In light of the new information about the bolt serial #, I'll make a suggestion as to the reason for the Faz serial # on the butt socket.

As with all (?) US imports of milsurps the bolt was shipped separately to the rifle and they were randomly replaced once in the US (no worry about numbers matching)

This rifle was 're-assembled' using a Faz bolt.

The original (feint) BSA "BB" serial number was Intentionally, ( or accidentally) overstamped with the import marking so they renumbered the body to match the 'new' bolt.

I still maintain that it is a BSA manufactured rifle. With an incorrect, and probably never actually properly FITTED, bolt.

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staffy

· #23 · 5 d ago

Birmingham proof marks, can't decipher the date, and American importer.

JB White

· #24 · 5 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
Not to throw you a curveball, but this is stamped on the barrel. View attachment 4112311
View attachment 4112309
View attachment 4112310

That’s one wicked curveball! I doubt anyone can truthfully knock it out of the park.

Birmingham proofs and US import markings from two different eras.
Guess: Released from service and proofed for civilian sale per UK specs.
US Import marked at a bonded warehouse. Scooped from there and sent to Malaya. Surplused off with the others afterwards and sold through Century.

My guess at it. Confused as it is and without certainty.

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milprileb

· #25 · 5 d ago

Nice pictures of JB White and mates with No.5 in Malaya.
Somewhere along the line with such faint serial #, it got re stamped with the R serial #.
That would be understandable and most likely done by Brits at some point after WWII.

As to how it got whacked England and then got Century Import marks could be this is a
No.5 prepared for export to USA, but never shipped...later post 68, Century sorted out its
inventory and shipped it along with import marks. With the volume of milsurps Century had
going pre 68, its no surprise to me some did not get here before 68 Gun Law took effect and those
that did not ship in time had the old England stamp on them. Thus this is double stamped by Century.

The above makes more sense to me.

I duly note, when the issue of treatment of Enfield wood pops up, there is great debate and heated
exchanges. Do take note Laidlers father had no issue polish or beeswax applied to wood. I think he
was on to something and todays Howards Feed & Wax allows such treatment. Now howl all you wish but
Howards has been good to all wood in my experience .... throw rocks all you want.

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JB White

· #26 · 5 d ago

I’d say your guess is as good as mine.
You probably shouldn’t have blabbed about me being in Malaya. Legally I wasn’t quite old enough to have been there in the first place.
The rifle in the pic was unloaded. I wasn’t yet strong enough to carry the weight of a loaded one.

Alan De Enfield

· #27 · 5 d ago

milprileb said:
Somewhere along the line with such faint serial #, it got re stamped with the R serial #.
That would be understandable and most likely done by Brits at some point after WWII.

Yes unreadable serial numbered rifles were 'issued' with a new serial number, BUT, they did not just use a random Fazakerley number, there was a specific format used :

Again, quoting the 'Good Captain' :

As for the markings, well, as I have said before, the shallow, almost invisible pantograph scratch markings caused all sorts of headaches for Armourers and thousands of these almost invisible Fazakerley re-numbered rifles were later re-numbered with the 'lost' number format of SA60 A1234 and so on. One seen only last week reads SA63-A2253 indicating Small Arms, 1963 with the sequential number A-2253 while underneath a number that reads something like 53P xxxxx follows!"

(No doubt it was applied to any 'invisible' serial number, not only the Fazakerley rifles)

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milprileb

· #28 · 5 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
Yes unreadable serial numbered rifles were 'issued' with a new serial number, BUT, they did not just use a random Fazakerley number, there was a specific format used :

Alan, I'd bet that R was put on in Malaya and they could care less if it was a proper prefix , it did regain serial # accountability for arms room purposes. Now did a Brit do that or a Malay Armorer after their independence.

I am good with this being a bonifide No.5, not a parts rifle and a solid example for a collection. Now, condition of
wood and bore might not make it a great range shooting rifle, the owner will have to give feed back on that. The
brass disc most likely a Malay installation , I believe they issued these No.5 at some point in time to police .

By the way ...where is the Been There Done That Crowd ? On Holiday or what? No one playing the Been There Done That Violin for this No.5 ??? !!

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JB White

· #29 · 5 d ago

milprileb said:
By the way ...where is the Been There Done That Crowd ? On Holiday or what? No one playing the Been There Done That Violin for this No.5 ??? !!

So far there is no indication of any intent to strip and refinish, replace parts, add mag wheels to make it shoot faster in the quarter mile….
But if you like the sound of the chorus I’ll be happy to get them going for you?

We can do the one about original in-service condition and preserving the history trail. I’m sort of fond of that one myself.

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #30 · 5 d ago

3

The underside of the bolt knob is stamped with the British proofing house mark along with the fore end

of the receiver, and also the barrel. I’m not sure if this is going to add to the confusion or help.

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Alan De Enfield

· #31 · 5 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
I’m not sure if this is going to add to the confusion or help

It simply shows that it was sold by the British Military into the British "Civilian Gun Trade" (a legal requirement).
It may have had a 'civy' owner or it may have been sold from the dealer to a US importer, or maybe to a dealer buying on behalf of the Malay Government.
It may have gone to the US and then been shipped to Malaya, then sold off after the Malaya 'crisis' and headed back to the US.

Lost of "ifs, maybes and possibles" but, it was definitey sold out of service into the UK civilian market.

GeeRam

· #32 · 5 d ago

Its an oddity. The usual chain of events was British left behind, gifted as aid stuff to Malaysia rather than bring it back, and then it was sold off as surplus by the Malaysian's in subsequent decades.
We were pretty much there until 1971/2....I wouldn't have thought the Malaysian's would have any need to have been buying them from civilian arms dealers prior to or even after this?

milprileb

· #33 · 5 d ago

Can't leap that it went to USA and then off to Malaya, unless someone can document Malaya bought surplus rifles from US vendors who shipped weapons to Malaya.

Alan De Enfield

· #34 · 5 d ago

GeeRam said:
Its an oddity. The usual chain of events was British left behind, gifted as aid stuff to Malaysia rather than bring it back, and then it was sold off as surplus by the Malaysian's in subsequent decades.
We were pretty much there until 1971/2..

Yes - the fact it was imported into the US in the years prior to 1968, when the 'Malay crisis' was going strong until 1960 throws a 'spanner into the works'.

DisasterDog

· #35 · 5 d ago

JB White said:
Released from service and proofed for civilian sale per UK specs.
US Import marked at a bonded warehouse. Scooped from there and sent to Malaya. Surplused off with the others afterwards and sold through Century.

This is what I was getting at in Post #21.

I mention Interarms since at one point they owned Cogswell & Harrison, and were pretty much raiding the Weedon depot.

Would they have made deals with foreign governments or agencies?

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GeeRam

· #36 · 4 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
Yes - the fact it was imported into the US in the years prior to 1968, when the 'Malay crisis' was going strong until 1960 throws a 'spanner into the works'.

Only scenario (based on stuff Peter L has mentioned before) was that it was returned to the British as part of a batch of better ones from stocks held by MOD in Singapore, and this one ended up back in UK for disposal by MOD. Its been sold into UK gun trade and then likely exported to USA?
The issue then would be that the re-stamp of the wrist number to match the bolt was likely done after import to the USA. The wrist stamping is much sharper than the number on the bolt, which would make sense if that's what happened?

Lyman1903

· #37 · 4 d ago

the crossed pennants in the proof marks should show when it was proofed at Birmingham,

the England stamp on the wrist and the Century import could be a bit confusing

GeeRam

· #38 · 4 d ago

Lyman1903 said:
the crossed pennants in the proof marks should show when it was proofed at Birmingham,

It could do if it was readable in the photo's, but buggered if I can read it.

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #39 · 4 d ago

GeeRam said:
It could do if it was readable in the photo's, but buggered if I can read it.

GeeRam said:
It could do if it was readable in the photo's, but buggered if I can read it.

best I can do ATM

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #40 · 4 d ago

milprileb said:
Nice pictures of JB White and mates with No.5 in Malaya.
Somewhere along the line with such faint serial #, it got re stamped with the R serial #.
That would be understandable and most likely done by Brits at some point after WWII.

As to how it got whacked England and then got Century Import marks could be this is a
No.5 prepared for export to USA, but never shipped...later post 68, Century sorted out its
inventory and shipped it along with import marks. With the volume of milsurps Century had
going pre 68, its no surprise to me some did not get here before 68 Gun Law took effect and those
that did not ship in time had the old England stamp on them. Thus this is double stamped by Century.

The above makes more sense to me.

I duly note, when the issue of treatment of Enfield wood pops up, there is great debate and heated
exchanges. Do take note Laidlers father had no issue polish or beeswax applied to wood. I think he
was on to something and todays Howards Feed & Wax allows such treatment. Now howl all you wish but
Howards has been good to all wood in my experience .... throw rocks all you want.

Excellent insight on the reply. I believe this might be the closest to what actually happened. I cannot prove that it was in Malaysia, other than a bit of corrosion on the barrel band and the disc. I love where these rabbit holes lead.
I used to collect baseball cards when I was a kid, but they’re just lousy pieces of cardboard, but they seem to be worth more if there was an error on them.🤷‍♂️

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