Confusing No.5 Mk1 wrist markings

1319 Views 65 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Alan De Enfield, 8 d ago

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · 15 d ago (Edited)

I picked up a bucket list item the other day, but I am a bit confused on the stampings on the wrist. From what I know the single prefix letter R should be a Fazakerley batch number, but the manufacturer code M 47C indicates it was

made in Shirley by the Birmingham, small arms factory. This No.5 has all of the correct lightning cuts present and is matching except for the magazine which is common. It happens to be a Savage, so I lucked out. Underneath the ENGLAND import stamp I can make out just barely what I believe to be the original Shirley serial number BB 2665. It also has a British proof mark from when it was sold out of service. There is a disk on the butt stock, which I believe may be Malaysian military or police. Any information on this rifle would be wonderful as I am running into dead ends, trying to figure out the stamping on the wrist.
Thank you for looking and reading this far and as always be well and stay safe.
Cheers!

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Alan De Enfield

· #2 · 15 d ago

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Alan De Enfield

· #3 · 15 d ago

Certainly R4590 is a September 1945 Fazakerley serial number.

I'd hazard a guess that the import markings were stamped over the BSA (BB) serial number obliterating them and the importer had to come up with a serial number and (maybe) used one he already knew belonged to a No5 rifle of 1945.

I'm 99% sure it is a BSA manufactured rifle that was assembled / built for use in the European theatre.

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Lyman1903

· #4 · 15 d ago

did you post this on the Fakebook Enfield page with a rather lengthy dissertation on it?

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Lyman1903

· #5 · 15 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
Certainly R4590 is a September 1945 Fazakerley serial number.

I'd hazard a guess that the import markings were stamped over the BSA (BB) serial number obliterating them and the importer had to come up with a serial number and (maybe) used one he already knew belonged to a No5 rifle of 1945.

I'm 99% sure it is a BSA manufactured rifle that was assembled / built for use in the European theatre.

you have posted similar before, recently,

would the metal cap on the stock be the indicator, or lack or green paint?

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #6 · 15 d ago

Lyman1903 said:
did you post this on the Fakebook Enfield page with a rather lengthy dissertation on it?

I did.

Lyman1903

· #7 · 15 d ago

chefshaunkilleen said:
I did.

I thought it looked familiar, saw that post last night

Lyman1903

· #8 · 15 d ago

And welcome to gunboards!

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #9 · 15 d ago

Thank you. I had completely forgotten about this resource until a very knowledgeable friend reminded me last night. This is where the GURU's are

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Alan De Enfield

· #10 · 15 d ago

Lyman1903 said:
would the metal cap on the stock be the indicator, or lack or green paint?

One of the main ones, yes - to quote the infamous Cpt Laidler :

It was pointed out to me that originally, the fore-ends were left OPEN for the tropics (Malaya etc) but would be closed off for temperate climes.

But he then goes onto say that despite this, it often happened that either version got shipped to either theatre, if there was a need 'anything' would be sent.

This didn't always work in practice because we saw hundreds of 'capped' fore-ends in service there. And as sure as night follows day, they'd rot out underneath so, if the fore-end was still sound, we simply removed them and make good the woodwork by rounding off. And once they'd been rounded off, you couldn't tell whether they were originally 'capped' or not. This didn't happen to the No4 of course because the fore-end caps were open at the top while the No5's were enclosed if I remember correctly.

DO NOT varnish the woodwork as it does indeed seal in the moisture. Just leave it open and well oiled with linseed. Even the jungle couldn't defeat a well linseeded fore-end (well, it did occasionally, but after many years.....) My dad always said that a polish with French polish or button polish did allow the wood to breath if you wanted a bit of a shine or even good beeswax furniture polish. Anything that leaves the pores clear

One further point was that most of the big armouries had the No5 rifles muzzle down in the racks to prevent the oil attacking the old rubber butt pads. Later ones seem to fare better as they had a high neoprene (?) content. I suppose being muzzle down didn't help when the wet fore-end was draining down into the cap

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #11 · 15 d ago

Lyman1903 said:
you have posted similar before, recently,

would the metal cap on the stock be the indicator, or lack or green paint?

The endcap looks to be dark metal and matching patina on the wood and foreign band

chefshaunkilleen said:

DisasterDog

· #12 · 15 d ago

What’s the serial on the bolt?

Lyman1903

· #13 · 15 d ago

Alan De Enfield said:
Certainly R4590 is a September 1945 Fazakerley serial number.

I'd hazard a guess that the import markings were stamped over the BSA (BB) serial number obliterating them and the importer had to come up with a serial number and (maybe) used one he already knew belonged to a No5 rifle of 1945.

I'm 99% sure it is a BSA manufactured rifle that was assembled / built for use in the European theatre.

I doubt that,

probably more like ,,, Hey Bob, I stamped over the serial number,, what was that last rifles number? let's stamp it one off that one

remember, in the US, pre 68 there was no paperwork, doubt anyone cared about the serial on some surplus much less knew if the serial applied to a maker or year

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DisasterDog

· #14 · 15 d ago

If the bolt matches the R-serial, it’s highly unlikely a US importer would have bothered to do that.

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JB White

· #15 · 15 d ago

The 3/4” disc on the right side also appeared during the Malaysian surplus sell-off in the early 2000’s.
Yours has a pre-1968 US import marking. Makes me wonder if Malaya released surplus so shortly after the Emergency?

Alan De Enfield

· #16 · 15 d ago

The Malayan Emergency .. 1952-1960

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #17 · 15 d ago

DisasterDog said:
What’s the serial on the bolt?

the serial on the bolt. It looks to be electro pencil and is very faint, but does match the R serial number.

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5th Batt WWCT

· #18 · 15 d ago

The original serial number was B?2??5 you can see it under the ENGLAND stamp on the butt socket

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chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #19 · 15 d ago

5th Batt WWCT said:
The original serial number was B?2??5 you can see it under the ENGLAND stamp on the butt socket

Yes, I believe I indicated that in the original post. I’m glad somebody else can see it to.

chefshaunkilleen

Discussion Starter · #20 · 15 d ago

JB White said:
The 3/4” disc on the right side also appeared during the Malaysian surplus sell-off in the early 2000’s.
Yours has a pre-1968 US import marking. Makes me wonder if Malaya released surplus so shortly after the Emergency?

Not to throw you a curveball, but this is stamped on the barrel.

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