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the one i owned was actually serial numbered and series marked for the 25th series. it must have been pulled at some point for use in the CC rifle contract. it had no DC grooves, but had a peened over serial number and series 25 markings. it was renumbered to fall within the CC serial number range and also had the large Kokura arsenal symbol. this also would support my thoughts on how an important contract would command these rifles being pulled from the 25th series production. obviously, a school would not command such high importance to do so within the closing months of the war.
 

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i tend to agree that these rifles would have been issued to the Kempei Tai
There is no reason why the Kempei-tai would be using a different non-mum marked rifle, as they were part of the IJA, as same as any country's MP would be under the jurisdiction of it's army or navy.
Only reason a rifle would not have a mum is when the rifle is issued to a non-military organization, as with this case issued either to the Ministry of Education who conducted military training on students or to the Zaigo-gunjinkai (Vet's Association) who conducted same training to civilians. Military training of these non-military personnel became extremely important "especially" towards later in the war and assigning rifles specifically for these organizations is a no-brainer.
Initially the training rifles were marked with a 文 under the mum and two circles left of the serial number on MOE school destined rifles and a splayed M under the mum and three circles left fo the serial number on Zaigo-gunjinkai destined rifles, but the presumption I have is that the various markings were complicated and were all just combined into replacing the mum with a CC. A Chigusa T-38 with a 文 mark under the CC over an arsenal ground mum is a good example of the transition.
 

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Don Harper who started Banzai believed that the concenti9c rifles were used by the Kempei tai,, the Japanese "secret police." QUOTE]

The Kempei-tai is often referred as the "secret-police" but that is a misnomer. Although they were a mean SOB bunch in general, they were military police (MP) under direct jurisdiction of the Army Minister. The real Japanese secret police were the Tokko (Tokubetsu Koto Keisatsu) who were under the civilian police jurisdiction but was assigned as counter-political and ideaology crimes, closer to a Gestapo style policing.
 

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Just for the record, 千種 is pronounced Chikusa. It seems that most have replaced the 'k' with a 'g', which is incorrect.
Touche. However, Chikusa is a more awkward pronunciation even in Japanese and most often repronounced Chigusa, even though officially the particular locale name in Nagoya is indeed Chikusa. As a general Kanji word it could be pronounced both ways, Chikusa or Chigusa.
 

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Ah, forgot about the 'bun' marked CC rifle!

I vaguely remember something in my Japanese linguistics class about the rule of "softening" of certain letter combinations. Even though certain words are spelled in a specific way, due to time, regional differences and relaxed speaking, it's easier to fudge the pronunciation to make it easier to say. One rule I recall was that N before B or P was changed to M, so you get Nambu rather than Nanbu.
 

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Spot on Dawgs, great example !
Now how do you figure the meaner-than-a-junkyard-dawg Kempei-tai rifle having anything to do with a MOE 文 mark. Proof that the "CC were Kempe-tai mark" theory is just hogwash.
TME30-380 shows the CC mark as symbolizing government buildings, or government ownership, on Japanese maps. I knew that when researching for the 1977 first edition of MROJ. Ok, that fact was reinforced when visiting the National Archives and reviewing a just declassified box of post-WW2 ordnance reports in '75. I must have found half dozen or more photos in the reports of arsenal facilities with the CC mark painted or otherwise displayed on the side of buildings near entries. The CC symbol, to me, simply signifies government ownership. Well, I said as such in the 1st edition, and we're still discussing the subject and coming up with more complex theories 36 years later. Kinda like the Kennedy assassination - no end to the discussion. I've always found the simplest answer to be correct 99% of the time.
 

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TME30-380 shows the CC mark as symbolizing government buildings, or government ownership, on Japanese maps...The CC symbol, to me, simply signifies government ownership.
Fred is correct. I scratched my head and realized something I should've realized sooner. If you're Japanese and you've been through schooling in maps (as I have), this symbol is easily identified as one of the many map symbols that the Japanese use. The 'concentric circle' symbol is still used to this day to indicate a city hall, prefectural government or municipal building, indicating the seat of local government. The rest is left for one to fill in the blanks - these rifles were likely dispatched and stored in city halls or other local government buildings for local enforcement.

Have a look, second row down:

http://www.schoolicons.com/web/icon/map/map.html
 

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Fred and Steve,

Thanks for chiming in on this one. I appreciate the insight you both have, over a lot of uninformed speculation. I am sure this will come up again after a year or two, but now we have something to reference.
 

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We've seen the CC on various pieces of equipment, I thought I had saved a picture of a truck with CCs- but can't find it.

Maybe CW or another has it saved and can find it.

I added a link to this thread in the "interesting topics" sticky.
 

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There was one "theory" that these were "2nd class" because of the "=" mark. At the first Banzai get together at Tulsa Don Harper brought 5 or 6 CC rifles and disassembled them on the motel room bed in front of several of us. This was to show nothing was nothing 2nd class about them. Another of Don's theories, remember this was back when the earth was young and little was known on Arisakas, was that the 7th series was produced for the Navy (this belief because of the series mark and the Navy mark being similar). The 9th series, Howa and Izawa, were supposedly contracted to fill in for the 7th series rifles going to the navy. Again this was back when the names Izawa and Howa were unknown, the two were "Diamond dot" and "Three leaf clover."

If you can get your hands on copies of The Japanese Military Collectors Quarterly, JMCQ and Nippon Militaria, NM they are interesting reads. The former was edited by Frank Knapp and Bill Kortoba (sp?) and the later by Bill K. alone. Each lasted about two years. Both were "dead" when Don started Banzai. Knowledge on Arisakas and bayonets was in the dark ages back then.

I've learned the hard way not to loan books, but I have all JMCQ and NM copies "bound together" I'd be willing to loan these for a $100 deposit, refundable when the copies are returned in good condition. Postage comes out of your $100
 
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