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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Could you guys list the German K98 manufacturers that manufactured K98 rifles in concentration/death camps? I know BNZ used concentration camp labor for their SS contract rifles. Any other manufacturers like BNZ that had such factories? I know records have been destroyed to conceal the practice but this is knowledge I have from a while back. Any new evidence surface recently? Any ones used death camp labor?
 

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Most of the manufacturers used foriegn labor at some point in their factories, but as far as actual camp factories, BNZ is the only one I know of, and I think that was just parts assembly.
 

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I think they had prisoner/slave labor at Mauser Works. Most of German arms industry was subsidized with prisoner/slave labor. I think you are referring to SS manufactured arms. Wasn’t BNZ in a partnership with the SS? When Hitler was demanding Speer produce more small arms to replace what he lost in Russia, Speer indicated he was doing his best. Hitler was not satisfied. Himmler saw the opportunity to gain favor with the boss and indicated he could produce the arms, that Speer couldn't with his concentration camp team. There was money in it for Himmler. Himmler was trying to create his own industrial empire and state within a state so he was not dependent on appropriations from the state government. Read Albert Speer's Infiltration and Inside the Third Reich. There was a lot of bootlicking & backstabbing at the top inner circle of the 3rd Reich.

 

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"bcd" is indeed Gustloff manufacturer and they had a satelite at Buchenwald (Gustloff-Werke II). This ss-supervised camp assembled bcd coded G.43s. They also had some association with V-2 production. Darrin Weaver's book (Hitler's Garand) has a discussion about Buchenwald and K98s are mentioned in passing. The factory (located outside the walls of Buchenwald proper) was destroyed by the RAF in Aug '44 by precision bombing. I don't believe it has been substantiated just how Buchenwald was involved in K98 production (if at all).

German codes were assigned to manufacturers in an alphabetical sequence and not with any association to the factory name or location (except bSw). Therefore, the first code assignments (byf, bcd) were made towards the beginning of the alphabet while later codes (qve) came towards the end of the alphabet.

Here's my bcd G.43

 

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Discussion Starter #8
"bcd" is indeed Gustloff manufacturer and they had a satelite at Buchenwald (Gustloff-Werke II). This ss-supervised camp assembled bcd coded G.43s. They also had some association with V-2 production. Darrin Weaver's book (Hitler's Garand) has a discussion about Buchenwald and K98s are mentioned in passing. The factory (located outside the walls of Buchenwald proper) was destroyed by the RAF in Aug '44 by precision bombing. I don't believe it has been substantiated just how Buchenwald was involved in K98 production (if at all).[/b}

German codes were assigned to manufacturers in an alphabetical sequence and not with any association to the factory name or location (except bSw). Therefore, the first code assignments (byf, bcd) were made towards the beginning of the alphabet while later codes (qve) came towards the end of the alphabet.

Here's my bcd G.43



Thanks for the info. That's what I believe too that so far, only BNZ is the only substantiated K98 manufacturer that had factories at the actual concentration camp sites.
 

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I have a bcd 4 rifle with a ce barrel on it and it has the small ce style waffen stamps on
the receiver and the barrel. When I took it apart to clean it I found a SS stamp on the
bottom of the receiver just behind the recoil lug.From what I have been told this was a
ss inspector mark used with forced labor and its one of the lesser known dual maker rifles. If I remember right.
 

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bsd,

What you seem to be describing is a sauer assembly with bcd4 receiver likely proofed by JPS. I would be curious to know what SS marking you are refering to on the receiver and the source for defining said marking as SS.
 

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BSD is correct. I also have a BCD4 rifle with the same SS rune which I posted months ago on a previous thread and was told the same by several members, including a qoute from either a Mauser book or research report. I just moved into a new house and most of my things are still packed but I do have a copy of that info in a box somewhere in the garage. I will try to locate the info.
 

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I think what Scott was trying to do is be nice about saying the obvious, - these markings do not represent anything known with certainty, and are very likely not what "several members" here told you they are (Scott illuminated this subject as best as I have ever seen done last October on Boner's G/K forum, he does discuss the potential of these being SS related in surprising detail, which is a treat to see such worthwhile insight put on an open forum- Scott is not usually so open with his best information/insight!).
As it relates to the SS inter-relationships with Steyr, Gustloff Weimar or SS reworks in general Scott has few peers in the 98k field and I suspect Scott simply posted to see if bsd has found some documentation not yet discovered to support the numerous "forum" assertions that these random runes mean anything identifiable?

As to "slave labor" one would need to define the term, - you mean concentration camp labor utilized in the camp? Walther, Gustloff Weimar certainly for the G43; Steyr had unique connections and utilized KZ labor as well, - these firms had special relationships/connections, Fritz a longtime nazi dirtbag (one of great ability but a scumbag nonetheless); Steyr had the connections through who owned them & Meindl; Gustloff Weimar had Sauckel & Speer’s right-hand man (don't get better connections in nazi Germany).
As to coerced labor, which for many were close enough to slave labor they all used it to one degree or another, - Speed in his new book comments on Mauser's gentle attitude and manner compared to others (saved MO some heartache in 1945), some like BLM not as pleasant stories..

Sauckel imported labor for this purpose, he was not gentle nor was he overly concerned with willingness, - he was hanged at the end of the war, and he deserved it for so many reasons its hard to say what he was most guilty of.
 

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the germans used foreign labor. some 'slave' labor, some 'forced' labor. but.... if you went to nazi germany willingly for cash would you say you went for money?
 

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Scott the only info on my rifle is what I got here on g/b. I posted a question about it
after I took it apart and saw the markings. It was a few months ago.

Red nine if you do fine the info would you please post it. I would like to save it for future
use. Thanks
 

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I finally found my copies of the thread, dated 05/06/2006.
bruce98k posted this response to the SS runes located under the receiver ring of my BCD4:
In the Feb. 1998 KCN, Wieringa wrote and I quote "In the earlier article it was speculated that the marking was not an SS property acceptance or rework marking but instead some sort of Gustloff stamp, possibly a SS inspector responsible for the Buchenwald labor used in the Gustloff plant.
In this case, this mark may be some sort of SS personnel acceptance stamp, similar to the Mauser RW proof.
 

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The exact quote attributed to MarkW (reference to rune in front of the sear on the underside of the receiver):

"In a previous article in the KCN, this writer had reported on an identical marking on an early bcd 43 Kar.98k. Subsequent to that article, and as a result of its publication, two late bcd 42 Kar.98k were reported with the same markings in the same location. In the earlier article it was speculated that this SS marking was not a SS property, acceptance, or rework marking, but instead some sort of Gustloff factory stamp, possibly a SS inspector responsible for Buchenwald labor used in the Gustloff plant. The marking on this bcd/ar 42 is not inconsistent with that theory; the rebuilding of this rifle was definitely done by HZa Berlin-Spandau, as indicated by the stock markings. An additional piece of information helps confirm the Gustloff factory connection - a Gustloff assembly duv 42 Kar.98k with the same SS marking has now been reported."

This rifle is a Astrawerke made receiver, assembled in Berlin (e/26 final, e/26 barrel, Su stock acceptance); Mark goes on further.. "Some collectors have speculated that the dual-code receivers were marked with the bcd code at Astrawerke, and shipped to Gustloff already coded. This with the added " /ar" were thought to have been shipped to Mauser Werke Borsigwalde from Astrawerke, complete with existing bcd code already on them. This scenario does not, however, satisfactorily explain the centered bcd/ar variation. It would seem that this particular bcd/ar receiver did in fact go to Gustloff where it picked up the SS runes, before being sent to Mauser Werke Borsigwalde. It may suggest that all the dual-code receivers did in fact come to Borsigwalde via Gustloff, and not directly from Astrawerke".

MarkW, and BruceK are both outstanding knowledgeable collectors with valid POV, however as you can read back in 1998, Mark used a great many words that offer some ambiguity? (Scott back in October used many of these same words)

“possibly”, “theory”, “speculated” “reported”, “scenario”, “It would seem”, & “may suggest”

Fact is no one knows what the runes mean, where or for what reason they were applied with any certainty; some have theories, - some better than others- lastly I might point out that Mark wrote this nearly 10 years ago, and I have never heard him elaborate on his current view.

I finally found my copies of the thread, dated 05/06/2006.
bruce98k posted this response to the SS runes located under the receiver ring of my BCD4:
In the Feb. 1998 KCN, Wieringa wrote and I quote "In the earlier article it was speculated that the marking was not an SS property acceptance or rework marking but instead some sort of Gustloff stamp, possibly a SS inspector responsible for the Buchenwald labor used in the Gustloff plant.
In this case, this mark may be some sort of SS personnel acceptance stamp, similar to the Mauser RW proof.
 

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You really have no concept of what nazi Germany was, how it was managed, how it governed, nor how its economy functioned?

The system wasn't based upon one similar to ours, they were truly in every sense of the word a gangster government... they were ruthless, brutal, and unremorseful. They did not represent Germany, its people or anything beyond the criminal organization it was shown to be at Nuremberg.

To suggest that any meaningful numbers of laborers were brought to Germany 1942-1945 by the lure of "cash" is not only stupid it is disrespectful of those that fought to end nazism in Europe.

the germans used foreign labor. some 'slave' labor, some 'forced' labor. but.... if you went to nazi germany willingly for cash would you say you went for money?
 

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Gustloff, Walther, & Steyr.. though "death camp" is probably not the best description, as though all were that essentially, the nazis had real "death camps" made for this exact purpose.

The SS did not join in this program as freely as you might expect, - they had plans for their labor- assisting German industrialist were not on their top ten list.. remember nazis are more akin to communists and socialist than capitalist.. you know in the United States we call them democrats


OK I rephrased my question since I was confusing people with my question.
 

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That comment is WAY out of bounds in my opinion.
My dad is a Democrat and a WWII combat veteran.
My mom (rest her soul) was a Democrat and an underpaid small town school teacher.
I am a proud Democrat and have worked with my hands since I was 17 ( I am now 57).
For you to spout that drivel here is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
How about this, how many Democrats fought in the last three wars?
How many died defeating Hitler?
How many are fighting and dying NOW?
Lastly, that demonizing crap is EXACTLY the type of lie that Hitler's propaganda machine used to justify the murder the Jews, so in an arena where the study of WWII history is the topic, can you not LEARN from that history?
 
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