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Steve M
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1027 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 09:27:11 AM
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Need some advise, opinion and edukation from my Peer's.

If an avid collecter of things Makarov and an interest in related things of eastern Europe , Russia ,DDR, didn't have the Type 59 in that collection , how important would that be ??
If I understand right they were imported in a limited number before being banned.
Am I being to political ( Including all the good manufacturing job's headed there)among other things for passing them up all these years?
While the Soviets and Chinese shared a lot of different weapons, I've always thought of them being in two seperate worlds.


Now , If a guy is interested in adding a 59 to the Collection, what to look for? Fixed sights and 9x18 and let it go at that? Is there a differ between the commercial and military?
I really don't know much about them and all the information I'm finding on the internet is pretty basic and brief.
OK , that's enough , we'll leave $$ for another topic.

Thanks , Steve



SlimTim
TN-GA Shooters Forum Moderator



USA
5238 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 10:48:45 AM
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I recently sold a nice Type 59 in 9x18 for $200, just last month. (BTW, the sight is windage adjustable, not fixed.) While not rare, they are not easy to find as most are in private hands. Patience is your friend, one will turn up at a reasonable cost if you take your time. These are only semi-collectable IMO, as the real collectable is the Type 59 SHI.

Finding the SHI is a real trick. Expect you will have to check out the high end auction houses like Rock Island Auction Co., etc. Plan on shelling out some major cash, more than chrome Bulgarians. SHIs were never imported, they are only bring backs, whether papered or not.

SlimTim

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Budweiser's Real Man of Genius: Mr. Gun Show Junkie.

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MakDragon
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
142 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 1:14:42 PM
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What does the SHI stand for?

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CW
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2370 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 4:41:51 PM
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The Chinese Maks had the honor of being the first imported into the US, and the first to be banned.
The Type 59 SHI is a hard one to find, and the only bonafide Chinese Military Mak. I think the commercial ones, prefix A, B and ZZ, are just as good when it comes to filling in the collection hole. They have an interesting history/rumor behind them too!
I'm not entirely sure what SHI stands for. The Japanese use the same kanji for 'Type' and use the word shiki. Might be something similar in Mandarin. Either way, I figure it is either 'Type' or 'Year'.


gospodin
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
486 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 6:07:13 PM
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Subject to correction ,it is my obsevation that there were two (and maybe more) distinct Type 59 Chinese Makarov's imported to the U.S. The first was a gun which was military marked on the frame and to which some commercial markings (on the slide) were added. The marking were -and I'm working from memory now as I foolishly did'nt keep the pistol- "Made in China" "Type 59" and 9mm Makarov" in three lines on the left slide.This gun did not have an adjustable rear sight. The finish was very nice,much like an East German PM. The second gun had full commercial markings on the slide and was serialed with a prefix of either A,B or ZZ. These were imported by somebody with a name like "Beta West Arms Co." or some such. Sorry for the imperfect info. I did'nt wake up to the goodness of Maks until recently.Maybe other posters have more accurate info?


Teakwood
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1987 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 7:22:50 PM
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I recently picked up a Norinco type 59. It had the worst fit and finsh of any Mak I had ever seen.

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Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it.


jimmy2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1183 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 7:54:24 PM
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The quality sure seems to vary on Norinco Maks. My B-prefix commercial Type 59 has a beautiful deep blue finish that beats my Bulgies, Russians, EGs, and PMs. Inside the gun is another matter, though--on mine, the workmanship inside is kinda crude.


shaw
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
382 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 8:17:18 PM
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I have a type 59 zz serial marked that came in a commercial box with both a adjustable sight on the gun and a fixed one in the box with a small brass screwdriver, early style cleaning rod and extra mag in about 89-90 if i remember right, with import marks on the slide as gospodin stated. the second type was imported about 6 months later with a much worse finish and they were not nearly as well made with stamped over import marks changing the orginal ones.The markings were 59 shi triangle with 66 inside and a serial no. a buddy of mine brought some of second batch, he was a dealer, i believe Norinco was the orginal importer. The 59 shi were alot rougher that the zz marked ones.

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LTC Jim


ScottB
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
557 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 8:18:00 PM
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I am not convinced, though willing to listen to reasoned discourse, that there were military issue Chinese Maks which were restamped and sent out as export models. Went down to the gun pile and pulled out some militaries. While not an exaustive survey, it is more than one:


Download Attachment:
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The firsrt thing to point out is that the militaries all have serial numbered safeties and the STAMPED triangle 66, 59SHI frame mark.


Download Attachment:
38.11 KB

The last four numbers of the serial are stamped on the tgrigger guard under the barrel(etched on commercials).


Download Attachment:
24.26 KB
The frame milling above the backstrap is much thinner on all the militaries(right) than my commercial example.


Download Attachment:
27.46 KB

All the militaries have a number etched on the maimspring. This is NOT the serial number. My guess is it represents a test value(# of kilos or newtons). Have not seen on the commercials.


Download Attachment:
23.29 KB

Some other differences include serial etched on the outer side of the trigger transfer bar on militaries , inner on commercials. Throating of the barrel on commercial only and additional barrel inspector marks on the military.
If your example not consistant with these observations, please post.

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Edited by - ScottB on 02/05/2004 8:19:41 PM


shaw
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
382 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 8:40:50 PM
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I read your post,the zz one is like mine, the 59 shi is like those imported i didn't buy one because of the bad shape, however i at the time saw 200 of them that he bought,the zz was bought from a dealer in texas.all the 59 shi were sold in the oklahona city area. I at the time had to look up the 59 shi marking for him and i believe the gun were discussed in AUTOMAG by NAPCA members,they however did not have chi com grips and had the russian style, i can'post due to lack of a camera.The rumor at the time was that the 59s had been orginally intended for Afganistan and were sold of in the US by the chicom(at least that was what my friend was told).

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LTC Jim

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Edited by - shaw on 02/05/2004 8:47:40 PM


isofluorane
Gunboards Premium Member



118 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 8:48:59 PM
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Shaw, I'm intrigued by your post; who is "he", and do you know how they actually got in-country? Were importer markings not required?


criticalbass
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2859 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 8:57:45 PM
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I have picked up two with the "adjustable" rear sight, each for $150 in Oklahoma City in the past couple of years. I'm away from home at the moment, so I don't know what markings they have, though I recall 66 in a triangle [I think]. They look like they were sanded with a rock, but have amazingly dark bluing on top of the scratched finish. The one I have fired works well now that I have removed the stiff green cosmoline from critical areas like the extractor. (Tried to get by with spraying down the extractor--cosmoline was hard and dry and resisted all solvents. Had to dig it out with a broken wood Q-tip. By the way, Brownell's has long wooden Q-tips if you can't find them elsewhere.)


isofluorane
Gunboards Premium Member



118 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 9:02:27 PM
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Critical Bass, Are you referring to militaries, or commercial models? They sound like commercials, but there's the Oklahoma City thing coming back from Shaw's post.


shaw
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
382 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 9:20:51 PM
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YES,that is what they looked like ,the 59 shi importers marks were over stamped,it was my understanding that norinco imported them,however i don't have a copy of the 59 shi in my collection,the seller was a dealer in midwest city, ok who has since went out of business,however he didn't import them!this was all prior to 1990,
the dealer was a distributor for norinco at the time.

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LTC Jim

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Edited by - shaw on 02/20/2004 10:16:07 PM


shaw
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
382 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 9:42:07 PM
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Guys, i just went to the safe and dug out my Chicom zz the import marks are as follows MADE IN CHINA BY NORINCO
CSI LA CA USA. MOD 59 9X18MM

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LTC Jim


Teakwood
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1987 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2004 : 10:16:57 PM
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Mine is a "B" series Beta Arms import. I concur with ScottB's observations and add that the underside of the safety is also SN etched.

As I have said, poorest fit and finish of any Mak I have seen, but with an incredible red-plum colored safety. At $135 OTD, I could not resist.

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Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it.


jimmy2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1183 Posts
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 2:24:15 PM
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Teakwood, for $135 I couldn't resist either! Fact is, I paid twice as much for mine.

ScottB, what kind of workmanship do you see on your Chinese military Maks?


ScottB
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
557 Posts
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 6:38:40 PM
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Very high quality. Some are a bit beat up( through a war in a tropical climate and all) but the polish is very high, not scratchy like later ChiCom production. Fit is also good, nothing loose or rattling. Smooth trigger, not gritty. I would rate comperable to the E German, but the smaller grips don't give the same feel of the full size German.

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Edited by - ScottB on 02/06/2004 7:13:37 PM


Steve M
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1027 Posts
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 11:00:41 PM
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Lot's of good info coming out . For sure, I'm going to pass on the ones that were sanded with a rock , Thanks Guys , I knew I could count on you all !!


Warbird
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
654 Posts
Posted - 02/07/2004 : 07:20:42 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by ScottB

I am not convinced, though willing to listen to reasoned discourse, that there were military issue Chinese Maks which were restamped and sent out as export models. Went down to the gun pile and pulled out some militaries. While not an exaustive survey, it is more than one:


Download Attachment:
47.09 KB

The firsrt thing to point out is that the militaries all have serial numbered safeties and the STAMPED triangle 66, 59SHI frame mark.


Download Attachment:
38.11 KB

The last four numbers of the serial are stamped on the tgrigger guard under the barrel(etched on commercials).


Download Attachment:
24.26 KB
The frame milling above the backstrap is much thinner on all the militaries(right) than my commercial example.


Download Attachment:
27.46 KB

All the militaries have a number etched on the maimspring. This is NOT the serial number. My guess is it represents a test value(# of kilos or newtons). Have not seen on the commercials.


Download Attachment:
23.29 KB

Some other differences include serial etched on the outer side of the trigger transfer bar on militaries , inner on commercials. Throating of the barrel on commercial only and additional barrel inspector marks on the military.
If your example not consistant with these observations, please post.

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I am impressed to see that many Chinese military Maks in one colectionn! I have a zz S/N range with box, but the sights are fixed. The workmanship on this one is very nice. It is marked "Made in China by Norinco CSA LA Ca USA, Mod.59 9x18mm" I have been looking for the past 3 years for a Chinese military and have only seen one posted, and unfortunately for me it went dissapeared at a blink of the eye! Nice gathering of Maks ScottB, perhaps you can share pics of your complete collection with us. I imagine that it is awsome!


BigGuns
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
575 Posts
Posted - 02/07/2004 : 1:29:15 PM
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ScottB,
That is an impressive collection of ChiCom Mak's.
I saw a couple of them in the mid 80's. As well as having
many of the Commercials in my hand. Always contemplating buying one at the time. I would always opt for one of the more expensive "wondernines" of the time... Oh well who knew that
a few short years later that I would be struck by the Mak bug. Wish that I had a few of those now...
Rip.

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"You have got to stand for something or you will
fall for anything"...


sgtb
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
309 Posts
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 5:50:21 PM
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I have a couple to compare. One is a B serial number and one a ZZ serial number. Which is more rare? Do any of you know where I can get a rear sight for mine?

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62.58 KB

Download Attachment:
75.69 KB

Download Attachment:
54.86 KB I am missing it as you can see by the photo.


ScottB
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
557 Posts
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 9:54:10 PM
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Looks like <3000 ZZs were produced. B block Chinese are closer to 12,000 if the serial numbers can be believed.


woettinger
Gunboards Super Premium Member



357 Posts
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 11:31:50 PM
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I have a A serial in .380

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Edited by - woettinger on 02/19/2004 11:33:29 PM


chunkstyle
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



New Caledonia
1237 Posts
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 10:56:41 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by ScottB
Went down to the gun pile .

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I like the idea of a "gun pile"...

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"Every child had a pretty good shot,
To get at least as far as their old man got,
But something happened on the way to that place,
They threw an American flag in our face."
-Billy Joel, "Allentown"


isofluorane
Gunboards Premium Member



118 Posts
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 1:39:37 PM
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Does anyone know the significance of the ZZ within a triangle versus ZZ prefix guns? Or the relative numbers of the two?
 

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The Chinese MILITARY designation for the Mak is type 59, the Military arsenal that maufactures the Military is 66 in a triangle. There are no letters beside the 59 mark except the caliber 9 X 18. And at this point, how can anyone make so much of a persons ad with out actually seeing this gun ?????????????????? I expected better of this site.


What is this about? See post below.
 

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Not sure why you got your drawers in a wad there Arty. This is a capture and re-post of a thread from the old site (we're just getting started here).

That being said, I saw one of these at a gun show in Lexington this past Sunday. Shoot me an email if anybody wants the info on the FFL that had it. I nearly bought it @ $175, but I had just walked in, and had my sights set on something else.

Mike, getting rid of Arty's misplaced posts.- ST
 
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