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New rules, changes, or whatever you want to call them are being proposed by the ATF. Changes include firearm definitions, home made 80% firearms, and a few other things. One thing of note is that C&R holders may have to keep their records indefinitely. Below is a copy/paste from proposals:

6. Record Retention Currently, licensees other than manufacturers and importers do not have to store their ATF Forms 4473 or A&D records beyond 20 years. This proposed rule would require licensed dealers and collectors to store their Forms 4473 or A&D records indefinitely. The industry cost for this section would be minimal because FFLs could drop off their overflow records to ATF or have ATF ship them directly. The government cost for this provision is $68,939 annually. For more details, please refer to Chapter 7 of the Regulatory Impact Analysis.

This info is found on page 59 of the proposal in this link: https://thereload.com/app/uploads/2...ame-or-Receiver.NPRM_.Clean-Draft-OGC-HQS.pdf
 

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er... but if the license lapses then the records are moot, and the next month you get your new one, and a new book...
Secondly, as far as I know, A C&R doesn't do a 4473... and ATF doesn't want a bunch of hand written Bound Books so... best if luck to them, at most this will be a harassment to develop a procedural charge for a C&R or drive out the current holders through harassment. Funny thing is, I don't think they have an end game for those no longer licensed, so washing should still work.
 

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"How'd they come with the annual cost? "..........probably for storage, when I dropped my 01 ffl I had to send in all my 4473's and bound books.
 

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I let my C&R expire over a year ago because I was trying to curb my spending on guns. It didn't work. Now I just buy more guns locally rather than on here on Gunbroker! :ROFLMAO:
 

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The big change that will effect the most people is serialiing the AR15 uppers, etc. I read it a couple times and as usual not sure what owners of spare uppers would do, and when. Also unclear to me if uppers and lowers need too marked, then perhaps all the entire line of Ruger Mk series pistols will need the lower's marked. Could even be extended to slides on 1911? A potentially big mess. And potentially a lot of ugly dot punch stamped guns in our future. Or DIY stamps like the Russian refurbs with letters every which way.
 

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er... but if the license lapses then the records are moot, and the next month you get your new one, and a new book...
Secondly, as far as I know, A C&R doesn't do a 4473... and ATF doesn't want a bunch of hand written Bound Books so... best if luck to them, at most this will be a harassment to develop a procedural charge for a C&R or drive out the current holders through harassment. Funny thing is, I don't think they have an end game for those no longer licensed, so washing should still work.
Pretty clear after you get down through the first 100 pages to the clarifications. They do indicate that numerous ffl dealers have, in the past, destroyed records over 20 years old with the implication that there were no repercussions. At least the document does not state anything on that issue.

(e) Records of dealers and collectors.The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained until business is discontinued, either on paper, or in an electronic alternative method approved by the Director, at the business premises readily accessible for inspection under this part. Paper records that do not contain any open disposition entries and with no dispositions recorded within 20 years may be stored at a separate warehouse, which shall be considered part of the business premises for this purpose and subject to inspection under this part.

The whole thing is just vague enough so that no matter what you do they can hammer you legally until you run out of money trying to defend yourself or you plead guilty to something or other. Government legal eagles (or are they Jim Eagles) are just about too smart by half.
 

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SKS GOD OF GUNBOARDS
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Does this mean you have to add home built guns on a C&R record book? for me thats none of their business.and they are not C&R. When you send in your records they all go into the computer for them to research. As I understand it they are not suppose to add these they are supposed to be destroyed.
 

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Key word... Collecting is a hobby and nothing but a hobby
doing business on a C&R is a no no... so the first few might skate in their hammer games until they refine their terminology
 

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Does this mean you have to add home built guns on a C&R record book? for me thats none of their business.and they are not C&R. When you send in your records they all go into the computer for them to research. As I understand it they are not suppose to add these they are supposed to be destroyed.
NO, the title of this discussion implies this is all about C&R, when in reality C&R is a very small part of the change. Almost trivial when compared to the proposal to change serial number and mfg name marking requirements. C&R has nothing to do with modern guns. The old stuff should already be recorded as NSN.

Rhode Island already has all owners of 80% AR builds getting them named and numbered. Dont know the detail and I dont really care. Although this could serve as a model for federal regulations. I agree and already posted, this is a difficult read.
 

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er... but if the license lapses then the records are moot, and the next month you get your new one, and a new book...
Secondly, as far as I know, A C&R doesn't do a 4473... and ATF doesn't want a bunch of hand written Bound Books so... best if luck to them, at most this will be a harassment to develop a procedural charge for a C&R or drive out the current holders through harassment. Funny thing is, I don't think they have an end game for those no longer licensed, so washing should still work.
No 4473s unless dealing with a modern gun, or a dealer who for whatever reason doesn't want to accept a C&R (had a shop here that felt that way- lost a few sales that way, but their bidness. One that failed...).

You still probably ought to put ANY C&R firearm you acquire or dispose of in your C&R Bound book. I know I did as it wasn't that much hassle and IF I got audited (never happened), wouldn't be any question as to whether all the records that might be wanted were there.

Some of my guns are in the State Department's Office of Munitions Control (I think that is the right name) records from 1968, if anybody ever bothered to look. I guess. Had too many to bring home on just my PCS orders, and had to go to the Consulate General office in Frankfurt and apply for proper papers to bring them back (or over - a couple had never been in the US before and were imported). Turned out to be no trouble, but took a while. Now i have a nice and somewhat fancy license to import named and serial numbered guns, signed by a Deputy Secretary of State and with an embossed seal. And nobody wanted to look at it....
 

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Once my current c+r expires I have no desire to renew. Would it save me a few bucks? Probably but I think in the next couple years it won't be worth it.
 

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Once my current c+r expires I have no desire to renew. Would it save me a few bucks? Probably but I think in the next couple years it won't be worth it.
If you do not renew then the "proposed" change will require you either keep the book for ever and dont pretend to loose it. Or send it to the ATF like an FFL 01.

Given that it is too late to avoid this, I see no benifit to cancel or fail to renew. That is my read.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Once my current c+r expires I have no desire to renew. Would it save me a few bucks? Probably but I think in the next couple years it won't be worth it.
I'm thinking the same thing. I hope mine expires prior to this. It's currently only a copy of a draft. This might not be enacted; however, I think the current people running the show want every bit of info on as many people as possible.
 

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New rules, changes, or whatever you want to call them are being proposed by the ATF. Changes include firearm definitions, home made 80% firearms, and a few other things. One thing of note is that C&R holders may have to keep their records indefinitely. Below is a copy/paste from proposals:

6. Record Retention Currently, licensees other than manufacturers and importers do not have to store their ATF Forms 4473 or A&D records beyond 20 years. This proposed rule would require licensed dealers and collectors to store their Forms 4473 or A&D records indefinitely. The industry cost for this section would be minimal because FFLs could drop off their overflow records to ATF or have ATF ship them directly. The government cost for this provision is $68,939 annually. For more details, please refer to Chapter 7 of the Regulatory Impact Analysis.

This info is found on page 59 of the proposal in this link: https://thereload.com/app/uploads/2...ame-or-Receiver.NPRM_.Clean-Draft-OGC-HQS.pdf
Proposed changes so not yet in effect.
 

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curious,

how many C&R holders have ever been audited by the ATF?
 
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