Hey guys, sorry if this is a really stupid question. I have a CIA Cetme, she shoots very accurately with tight grouping, but have seen better quality with the welds and such. Still, quite happy. However, she is a real B*tch to cock. Roughly equivalant to my Thompson, only a longer pull, obviously. I can actually only cock it with my right arm. And I am a reasonably big guy. Is this just me or is something wrong, any suggestions? Or is the answer "Buck up Princess." Thanks, Marvell.
Cetme cocking spring tension
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Some things to consider, but I'm sure others will have a few more helpful suggestions:
1. How often have you shot it since you've had it? When I bought mine from CAI, I read that the tolerances were REALLY tight and CETMES benefit from a bit of break in time. I cleaned my CETME & then would just cock it repeatedly while I was hanging around & watching tv (wife thought I was a bit nuts). The seemed to help mine in that the areas within the receiver wore down a bit & now mine is very smooth operating. But yes, mine was VERY hard to cock initially.
2. Goes without saying, but make sure it's lubed properly.
3. If it's relatively new - it could be the tension on the recoil spring is high and needs to be worked a bit to soften it up (another result of the repeated cocking).
Since you said it's just hard cocking, and it's not binding anywhere, I'll assume that there isn't anything within the receiver or on the bolt carrier that could be offering resistance.
Like I said - there should be a few others along in a bit with a few more suggestions.
1. How often have you shot it since you've had it? When I bought mine from CAI, I read that the tolerances were REALLY tight and CETMES benefit from a bit of break in time. I cleaned my CETME & then would just cock it repeatedly while I was hanging around & watching tv (wife thought I was a bit nuts). The seemed to help mine in that the areas within the receiver wore down a bit & now mine is very smooth operating. But yes, mine was VERY hard to cock initially.
2. Goes without saying, but make sure it's lubed properly.
3. If it's relatively new - it could be the tension on the recoil spring is high and needs to be worked a bit to soften it up (another result of the repeated cocking).
Since you said it's just hard cocking, and it's not binding anywhere, I'll assume that there isn't anything within the receiver or on the bolt carrier that could be offering resistance.
Like I said - there should be a few others along in a bit with a few more suggestions.
Hello Marvel
AzCetme has some suggestions there on keeping the gun clean, and lubed!
But [Century] and [Tight tolerances] in the same sentence is a bit of a stretch.
As Az said, you should definitely remove the Carrier and completely clean and lube the inside of the cocking tube and Receiver. You can use some Gun spray cleaner to do the cocking handle and it's support tube.
I don't have time to go completely through this, but i will try!
If your trouble is just plane hard to move the cocking handle through the tube, check for dents/grit.
But if the problem is in pulling the cocking handle back from locked position?
First thing!
What is your bolt gap, letting the carrier fly forward on a Clean chamber?
Has your Bolt been ground shorter? [ century does this to make up for their poor Trunion installations and to falsely increase bolt gap].
To have your gun cock fairly easily you need to have a small gap of no more than .004-015" between the Cocking handle support and the End of the Carrier Tube [bolt/carrier locked in the trunion] The handle works as an overcam device and if there is too little or too much space you will have trouble releasing the lever from it's locked/forward position and for the next inch or so.
If you have too much cap, you can Buy a new Carrier if yours is worn or you can add material [usually a weld bead] around the forward end of the Carrier tube. Just make sure it is flat and filed square so you have a good contact surface.
Got to go to work!
sorry i couldn't go on.
gw11
AzCetme has some suggestions there on keeping the gun clean, and lubed!
But [Century] and [Tight tolerances] in the same sentence is a bit of a stretch.
As Az said, you should definitely remove the Carrier and completely clean and lube the inside of the cocking tube and Receiver. You can use some Gun spray cleaner to do the cocking handle and it's support tube.
I don't have time to go completely through this, but i will try!
If your trouble is just plane hard to move the cocking handle through the tube, check for dents/grit.
But if the problem is in pulling the cocking handle back from locked position?
First thing!
What is your bolt gap, letting the carrier fly forward on a Clean chamber?
Has your Bolt been ground shorter? [ century does this to make up for their poor Trunion installations and to falsely increase bolt gap].
To have your gun cock fairly easily you need to have a small gap of no more than .004-015" between the Cocking handle support and the End of the Carrier Tube [bolt/carrier locked in the trunion] The handle works as an overcam device and if there is too little or too much space you will have trouble releasing the lever from it's locked/forward position and for the next inch or so.
If you have too much cap, you can Buy a new Carrier if yours is worn or you can add material [usually a weld bead] around the forward end of the Carrier tube. Just make sure it is flat and filed square so you have a good contact surface.
Got to go to work!
sorry i couldn't go on.
gw11
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Now reading it back, that was a poor choice of words on my part. I really meant just that the gun itself can be a bit stiff and tight from the getgo and needs a bit of break in time. Wow, last time I have a few beers while I'm on the boards. To think I almost gave credit to the Century monkeys for paying attention to tight tolerances Az does make sense, I have probably only fired 50-100 rounds through this rifle. It's not one of my favorites, that is to say I have such a variety that this hasn't gone out much. No offense meant to thread watchers, I think this is a great rifle. It just seems that when I do get out, not nearly enough, that I take the same 3-4 rifles much more often than any of the others. I guess I would say my FAL, and my AK-47/AK-74's are my favorites. As I am mainly a military collector, my collection is about 50/50 semi-auto to bolt action, and a bolt action only goes out once or twice a year, they probably feel neglected. And a lot of my semi-autos are so precious to me that they rarely see much ammo through them. Alas, too many rifles, too little time. But I will take this one down again and give it another cleaning. I am thinking this may be the only military semi-auto I own that is not gas recoil operated. What kind of lube/grease would you recomend and how/where should I apply? Probably will catch hell for the last couple of statements, but generally a thorough cleaning and a light oiling is sufficient for most of my firearms. Marvell
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Since you only have 50-100 rounds through it, I would expect it to still be tight and a b*tch to cock. Mine started loosening up and smoothing out after 400-500 rounds. Of course with 7.62x51 prices the way they are, that can get a bit pricey.
As far as cleaning solvent, it's all a matter of preference. Like gw said, pay attention to grit in the cocking tube area & spray a cleaner in there. I personally don't spray a gun cleaning spray in there, I just spray the hell out of it with wd-40 (much cheaper), until it's just running out of the receiver - should help get alot of the crud out of it. I use a bore cleaner/scrubber on the bore, chamber, and the bolt carrier. As far as a particular lube, it's all personal preference & what you find works best. Many people may swear by gun grease, others by spray lubricants, or good old gun oil. I've found that spray lubricants work for me due to the fact that some places within the receiver are difficult to reach with oil or grease, so thats what I use and I've never had an issue with mine. Your mileage may vary, though. Just make sure you get lube on interior surfaces of the receiver where the bolt carrier rides, plenty on the bolt carrier itself, and I also spray some lube in the cocking tube area and the cocking handle base/slider itself. Hope this helps.
I wouldn't worry about the other guns you have or prefer. As long as the one you are asking about is up to par.
The cocking handle is the release for the bolt. There is a resistance camming the lever back to release the bolt.
With the carrier to the rear, your handle and support should slide freely all the way to the rear. If not the tube is bent , dented or just dirt in the tube. One other thing that can make it hard cocking is if the cocking handle spring was improperly installed, making it scrape against the inside of the tube.
Inside the cocking tube where it meets the receiver, there may be some weld burn through reducing causing a problem. Just look through the rear of the receiver to find that or with the rear stock removed, slide the carrier in and see if the front of the carrier tube is scraping there.
gw11
The cocking handle is the release for the bolt. There is a resistance camming the lever back to release the bolt.
With the carrier to the rear, your handle and support should slide freely all the way to the rear. If not the tube is bent , dented or just dirt in the tube. One other thing that can make it hard cocking is if the cocking handle spring was improperly installed, making it scrape against the inside of the tube.
Inside the cocking tube where it meets the receiver, there may be some weld burn through reducing causing a problem. Just look through the rear of the receiver to find that or with the rear stock removed, slide the carrier in and see if the front of the carrier tube is scraping there.
gw11
My nickle`s worth;
Years back , there was a quick check called the Dime trick - simply put , an ordinary dime from your pocket , or change jar , was dropped inside the charging handle tube , all the way towards the muzzle end , where the charging handle stops when the bolt goes into battery.
The dime acts as a shim, and allows you to unlock the bolt , without using more than one hand.
This is a temporary , troubleshooting , fix. If it works , you either add a bead of weld to the tube on your bolt carrier ( total length is 10 15/16ths inches ) or, you add a bead of weld to the camming surface of your charging handle.
Removing the charging handle is an all day affair , especially if it was done by the grinder monkeys that assembled the rifle in the first place.
I kid you not , I had one that the pivot pin had been installed into the handle support backwards.
It`s a tapered pin - visibly tapered !
PM me if I can be of any further assistance - and any can of brake cleaner works fine to clean out the charging handle tube / receiver.
Regards,
cevgunner
Years back , there was a quick check called the Dime trick - simply put , an ordinary dime from your pocket , or change jar , was dropped inside the charging handle tube , all the way towards the muzzle end , where the charging handle stops when the bolt goes into battery.
The dime acts as a shim, and allows you to unlock the bolt , without using more than one hand.
This is a temporary , troubleshooting , fix. If it works , you either add a bead of weld to the tube on your bolt carrier ( total length is 10 15/16ths inches ) or, you add a bead of weld to the camming surface of your charging handle.
Removing the charging handle is an all day affair , especially if it was done by the grinder monkeys that assembled the rifle in the first place.
I kid you not , I had one that the pivot pin had been installed into the handle support backwards.
It`s a tapered pin - visibly tapered !
PM me if I can be of any further assistance - and any can of brake cleaner works fine to clean out the charging handle tube / receiver.
Regards,
cevgunner
The dime method is great to identify a problem, but it in no way dictates the thickness of material needed to gain an advantage in cocking the handle back.
Any material added to reduce the gap should not exceed the space allowed. Meaning you have to have a slight space .004 min up to .015 max. .004 being best!
If you have no gap, your cocking handle will slap into the cocking tube stop every time you cock it and every time the carrier is cycled during firing. This will result in eventually cracking the tube from the forward force of the carrier.
Also you would have a very good chance of stopping the carrier before the bolt is fully locked !
I personally would not add material to the cocking handle for it will change [reduce] it's fulcrum advantage over the locked carrier/bolt assembly. The end of the carrier tube is best and easiest to adjust.
gw11
Any material added to reduce the gap should not exceed the space allowed. Meaning you have to have a slight space .004 min up to .015 max. .004 being best!
If you have no gap, your cocking handle will slap into the cocking tube stop every time you cock it and every time the carrier is cycled during firing. This will result in eventually cracking the tube from the forward force of the carrier.
Also you would have a very good chance of stopping the carrier before the bolt is fully locked !
I personally would not add material to the cocking handle for it will change [reduce] it's fulcrum advantage over the locked carrier/bolt assembly. The end of the carrier tube is best and easiest to adjust.
gw11
GW11 ;
That`s correct - the dime trick was the quick method of determining where the problem may be .
It is possible the tube was installed too short by several thousandths of an inch , and making things bang together. Not unheard of , just rare. In which case , you would need to remove metal from the end of the carrier. Again , rare, but not unheard of.
Remember : these are built from surplussed parts kits , and not on original fixtures. Some problems may occur during the build process , that don`t get caught until after the welds are cool...
Okay , assuming the cocking handle tube is cut to the right length , and installed correctly:
If you take a look at the charging handle pic I attached ( Thanks to Warthog , I believe ) the only place where the weld was added was the tip , or camming , surface. ( part in left side of pic)
This was done to ease the effort to unlock the bolt , in essence making the lever tip longer , and would only come into contact during the handle unfolding.
The charging handle carrier is still the same length , and will NOT contact the tube end piece during normal cycling. Presuming , of course , that the charging handle tube was installed correctly during the build process.
Given the quality of some of the welds I have seen , and the grind marks , and other things , I would have to say it`s entirely possible to have to add weld to the bolt carrier tube , as well as the tip of the charging handle camming surface , due to the tube being installed too long.
Again , I suggested the handle fix as a last resort . You are correct - it`s a lot easier to weld on the bolt carrier tube . As I mentioned , taking the charging handle out can be an all day affair. It took me about 4 1/2 hours the first time , and almost as long to get the elbow spring to line back up for re-assembly.
I used to have lots more time on my hands ... Note to self , dig out the slave pin & punch ...
As you say , it`s easier to fix the bolt carrier. I checked all my spares , and 10 15/16ths inches is the overall length they all have in common. B models, as well as our C models.
Oh , the recoil spring is 23 to 28 pounds , when fresh. I have several NOS springs if anyone is looking to replace theirs. G3 recoil springs also work , just don`t try to install the nylon button on the CETME recoil spring rod. It don`t fit.
I can measure some of the other parts involved , if anyone wants to know what new parts came from Santa Barbra looking like , dimensionally
Hope I haven`t confused anyone !
regards,
cevgunner
That`s correct - the dime trick was the quick method of determining where the problem may be .
It is possible the tube was installed too short by several thousandths of an inch , and making things bang together. Not unheard of , just rare. In which case , you would need to remove metal from the end of the carrier. Again , rare, but not unheard of.
Remember : these are built from surplussed parts kits , and not on original fixtures. Some problems may occur during the build process , that don`t get caught until after the welds are cool...
Okay , assuming the cocking handle tube is cut to the right length , and installed correctly:
If you take a look at the charging handle pic I attached ( Thanks to Warthog , I believe ) the only place where the weld was added was the tip , or camming , surface. ( part in left side of pic)
This was done to ease the effort to unlock the bolt , in essence making the lever tip longer , and would only come into contact during the handle unfolding.
The charging handle carrier is still the same length , and will NOT contact the tube end piece during normal cycling. Presuming , of course , that the charging handle tube was installed correctly during the build process.
Given the quality of some of the welds I have seen , and the grind marks , and other things , I would have to say it`s entirely possible to have to add weld to the bolt carrier tube , as well as the tip of the charging handle camming surface , due to the tube being installed too long.
Again , I suggested the handle fix as a last resort . You are correct - it`s a lot easier to weld on the bolt carrier tube . As I mentioned , taking the charging handle out can be an all day affair. It took me about 4 1/2 hours the first time , and almost as long to get the elbow spring to line back up for re-assembly.
I used to have lots more time on my hands ... Note to self , dig out the slave pin & punch ...
As you say , it`s easier to fix the bolt carrier. I checked all my spares , and 10 15/16ths inches is the overall length they all have in common. B models, as well as our C models.
Oh , the recoil spring is 23 to 28 pounds , when fresh. I have several NOS springs if anyone is looking to replace theirs. G3 recoil springs also work , just don`t try to install the nylon button on the CETME recoil spring rod. It don`t fit.
I can measure some of the other parts involved , if anyone wants to know what new parts came from Santa Barbra looking like , dimensionally
Hope I haven`t confused anyone !
regards,
cevgunner
.
Can anyone recommend someone who will do that welding to the tip of the carrier to lengthen it ? (welding challenged here)
I'm having the same problem with a G3 clone. I put in a safety pin to take up some of the slack and it worked fine. Gap is good so it looks like all I'll need is to take up some of that space.
.
Can anyone recommend someone who will do that welding to the tip of the carrier to lengthen it ? (welding challenged here)
I'm having the same problem with a G3 clone. I put in a safety pin to take up some of the slack and it worked fine. Gap is good so it looks like all I'll need is to take up some of that space.
.
Crffl;
If you have a machine shop nearby , or a garage , or a small fab/sheet metal shop , try talking to them about welding a ring , or just running a bead of weld around the end of the bolt carrier tube , just on the contact end , where the carrier touches the charging handle support.
Take only the bolt carrier , as it`s less likely to cause knee jerk leg wetting amongst the less firearms savvy folk.
Just point to the very end of the carrier tube , and ask politely if they might run a bead of weld to build it up longer. If asked , it`s an obsolete machine part , and you can`t easily get a replacement part, thus the welding...
Dress it off with a grinder , check it for squareness , polish it up with a bit of emery cloth , and be certain the bore of the tube is clear of weld goobers.
Oh , and DO NOT change the tiny shoulder inside the end of the tube ! About a half inch inside , there`s a shoulder , or reduced diameter area. This is what the recoil spring pushes against - if it gets drilled out , the rifle won`t work .
Again , from the big heavy end of the carrier , to the end of the tube , it`s 10 15/16 inches.
Hope this helps,
If not , pm or email me , I`ll send you my number , call & we`ll figure it out.
regards,
cevgunner
If you have a machine shop nearby , or a garage , or a small fab/sheet metal shop , try talking to them about welding a ring , or just running a bead of weld around the end of the bolt carrier tube , just on the contact end , where the carrier touches the charging handle support.
Take only the bolt carrier , as it`s less likely to cause knee jerk leg wetting amongst the less firearms savvy folk.
Just point to the very end of the carrier tube , and ask politely if they might run a bead of weld to build it up longer. If asked , it`s an obsolete machine part , and you can`t easily get a replacement part, thus the welding...
Dress it off with a grinder , check it for squareness , polish it up with a bit of emery cloth , and be certain the bore of the tube is clear of weld goobers.
Oh , and DO NOT change the tiny shoulder inside the end of the tube ! About a half inch inside , there`s a shoulder , or reduced diameter area. This is what the recoil spring pushes against - if it gets drilled out , the rifle won`t work .
Again , from the big heavy end of the carrier , to the end of the tube , it`s 10 15/16 inches.
Hope this helps,
If not , pm or email me , I`ll send you my number , call & we`ll figure it out.
regards,
cevgunner
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81 Posts
Hey Marvell!
All good suggestions,but let me add my .02.Through the help of Perro, Dr. Zero, others, Big50HK and a CETME Armorer's kit, I was able to rebuild my CAI POS CETME into a decent firearm.Tony at AA-OK recommended Lubriplate Engine Assembly grease and it works wonders for rough actions such as in the CAI CETME clones.You can buy a tube of it at NAPA for around $4-5.00.Put a liberal amount on the bolt carrier and cocking handle assembly prior to use and keep shooting her!Hopefully you'll get a little more break in of the mating surfaces.HTH-Gearhead
All good suggestions,but let me add my .02.Through the help of Perro, Dr. Zero, others, Big50HK and a CETME Armorer's kit, I was able to rebuild my CAI POS CETME into a decent firearm.Tony at AA-OK recommended Lubriplate Engine Assembly grease and it works wonders for rough actions such as in the CAI CETME clones.You can buy a tube of it at NAPA for around $4-5.00.Put a liberal amount on the bolt carrier and cocking handle assembly prior to use and keep shooting her!Hopefully you'll get a little more break in of the mating surfaces.HTH-Gearhead
Lubriplate !!!
I forgot about that - Gearhead hit on a good one , folks !
I looked at all the posts again, got to thinking , and that`s the one thing that slipped my mind- so simple !
Put a really GOOD grease on the moving parts , one that will stay put.
Put the grease on the areas where you have shiny rub marks - those are the tight spots that need the lube most.
Scrapes in the metal are where burrs, weld goobers , or other grinder monkey mistakes that need cleaned up on the mating surface. File, Dremel , and patience pay off !
Gearhead's Lubriplate idea - best thing for a clean but tight rifle , to make it run better.
It`s also great in the bolt camming surfaces on M1 , M14 series rifles , and as bolt roller lube for the M14/M1A rifles.
Nothing like seeing something so simple to provide a slap-on-the-back-of the-head reminder to keep things simple !
Merry Christmas to all !
cevgunner
I forgot about that - Gearhead hit on a good one , folks !
I looked at all the posts again, got to thinking , and that`s the one thing that slipped my mind- so simple !
Put a really GOOD grease on the moving parts , one that will stay put.
Put the grease on the areas where you have shiny rub marks - those are the tight spots that need the lube most.
Scrapes in the metal are where burrs, weld goobers , or other grinder monkey mistakes that need cleaned up on the mating surface. File, Dremel , and patience pay off !
Gearhead's Lubriplate idea - best thing for a clean but tight rifle , to make it run better.
It`s also great in the bolt camming surfaces on M1 , M14 series rifles , and as bolt roller lube for the M14/M1A rifles.
Nothing like seeing something so simple to provide a slap-on-the-back-of the-head reminder to keep things simple !
Merry Christmas to all !
cevgunner
Well, when working among my other problems I found there was 0 carrier bolt gap. Took a little to much off the bolt carrier. It was a bear to open with no bolt gap, now a bigger bear to open with too much gap. I realize that this whole thing unlocks the bolt and there is a fine line there. Now when I put a dime in front of the charging handle there is the tinyest free play and it works like butter. My plan is to get everything else working properly and then grind a dime till I get it working like it is now and with a slight bit of JB weld put the shim in front. Looks easier than taking it apart and putting weld on the cocking handle. Anyone see anything negative about this thought process?
cpt
You probably already repaired your cocking handle to your satisfaction. But!
Your fix is not the correct thing to do with a HK/Cetme Rifle.
So for future readers!
You mentioned in your post that when you took too much material from your forward carrier tube end and now you had too much space,harder to cock and a "0" Bolt Gap.
Your carrier contacting the Cocking Handle support is not what sets your Bolt gap.
[ a correct gun has a Bolt gap of .004" to .020" and a .005" to .015" gap at the cocking handle support/ forward Carrier Tube]
Your gun has a bolt Gap of Minus "0" to? but it is still in the minus.
The gap at the Cocking Handle Support and the Front Carrier tube does two things:
#1 - a gap of .005" to .015" is needed to properly release the Bolt/Carrier with the camming advantage of the cocking handle.
#2 - This gap also allows the Carrier to freely move forward [decreasing this gap] as the Locking Piece, Rollers and Trunion wear under normal use. [the carrier needs to be free in it's movement]
When the Carrier Tube extension contacts the Cocking Handle Support, the Carrier is being held back from complete Bolt lockup.
And eventually it will crack the cocking tube from the forward force, every time it cycles.
Your Barrel is Pressed in "forward too far" or your Rollers/ Locking Piece, or Bolt are worn more than they should be.
Good luck!
gw11
You probably already repaired your cocking handle to your satisfaction. But!
Your fix is not the correct thing to do with a HK/Cetme Rifle.
So for future readers!
You mentioned in your post that when you took too much material from your forward carrier tube end and now you had too much space,harder to cock and a "0" Bolt Gap.
Your carrier contacting the Cocking Handle support is not what sets your Bolt gap.
[ a correct gun has a Bolt gap of .004" to .020" and a .005" to .015" gap at the cocking handle support/ forward Carrier Tube]
Your gun has a bolt Gap of Minus "0" to? but it is still in the minus.
The gap at the Cocking Handle Support and the Front Carrier tube does two things:
#1 - a gap of .005" to .015" is needed to properly release the Bolt/Carrier with the camming advantage of the cocking handle.
#2 - This gap also allows the Carrier to freely move forward [decreasing this gap] as the Locking Piece, Rollers and Trunion wear under normal use. [the carrier needs to be free in it's movement]
When the Carrier Tube extension contacts the Cocking Handle Support, the Carrier is being held back from complete Bolt lockup.
And eventually it will crack the cocking tube from the forward force, every time it cycles.
Your Barrel is Pressed in "forward too far" or your Rollers/ Locking Piece, or Bolt are worn more than they should be.
Good luck!
gw11
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