Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Kryptonite member
Joined
·
5,765 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Looking at two, 19560 and 38818, both have chrysanthemums overstamped with concentric circles, the former has and inverted "7" on the right side of the butt and the later a "3" on the right side of the foreend immediately behind the front band. I can find no numbers stamped into the stocks on my Tokyo overstamped 30 carbines. Are the numbers on the CC overstamps a "happenso" or are the CC T-30 carbines number-marked for a reason?
 

·
Kryptonite member
Joined
·
5,765 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Is there a number stamped anywhere?

Apparently Tokyo Arsenal or some subcontractor had a Tokyo arsenal stamp to "cancel" the chrysanthemum before the rifles were surplused. One of the facilities used the two circle stamp rather than the Tokyo stamp. Would guess there was a reason, Tokyo cancelled rifles shipped overseas and two-circle rifles stayed in Japan? Or ???

We know 30 were still used during the war, John George ("Shots Fired in Anger") examined a carbine on Guadalcanal and 03man's collection has two, one from Saipan and one from one of the former Dutch possessions. And certainly the ground examples that show up now and then were in Japan at the war's end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
Mine is 21550, and is in pretty good shape, say 95+ bluing, that -5% being the floorplate; it came with its brass-headed cleaning rod and a T30 rifle sling. The stock is not quite as pleasing as Seinen's, dent's and dings being present. Barrel is very nice. No numbers.
Are the two that you are looking at in as good condition as Seinen and the one I have? The question here is were these selected from a group of carbines; chosen on the basis of condition, then so marked with the CC?
Most T30s I've seen, and that isn't a large number, have been real beaters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,670 Posts
These aren't true C.C. weapons. The double circle in this case is a cancelation mark. The standard long serial numbers & condition leads me to believe this. That & the fact that there are no recorded C.C. type 38 carbines recorded.
 

·
Kryptonite member
Joined
·
5,765 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I use the term "CC" since that's the easiest way to describe them. As noted, obviously there were two different methods of mum strike-out. We know the Tokyo overstamp was sold to foreign countries, Did the "CC" rifles go to schools, naval units, ???

On question of quality, one is about the same as Chips, the other has a refinished stock.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,670 Posts
Would be interesting if each & every form of mum over stamp had a specific significance. I've also seen a Nagoya over stamp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
I use the term "CC" since that's the easiest way to describe them. As noted, obviously there were two different methods of mum strike-out. We know the Tokyo overstamp was sold to foreign countries, Did the "CC" rifles go to schools, naval units, ???

On question of quality, one is about the same as Chips, the other has a refinished stock.
The one I have looks like what Seinen posted - no idea on the history, but it is a high number, 260,000+ range. I believe it to have been a rifle receiver converted and fit with carbine parts. It's one of those with the Yamaguchi Junior High kanji on the stock. The only bit of history I had on it was that a navy chief brought it back from Japan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,223 Posts
The one I have looks like what Seinen posted - no idea on the history, but it is a high number, 260,000+ range. I believe it to have been a rifle receiver converted and fit with carbine parts. The only bit of history I had on it was that a navy chief brought it back from Japan.
Wonder if you're still able to contact the Navy Chief who brought it back?

C/
 

·
Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
6,110 Posts
Dieter, does yours also have the mum overstamped with the double circle ?
I agree with Ronin that these double circles are just a variation of cancellation by some non-Tokyo arsenal or contractor, the cancel mark style difference to distinguish against the Tokyo stacked cannonball mark. If the double circle were meant for "school surplus" at this early stage (which I doubt. they came about in late T-38 prodcution timing), the Ichi-ko T-30 rifles should also have the double circles instead of the Tokyo overstamp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Dieter, does yours also have the mum overstamped with the double circle ?
I agree with Ronin that these double circles are just a variation of cancellation by some non-Tokyo arsenal or contractor, the cancel mark style difference to distinguish against the Tokyo stacked cannonball mark. If the double circle were meant for "school surplus" at this early stage (which I doubt. they came about in late T-38 prodcution timing), the Ichi-ko T-30 rifles should also have the double circles instead of the Tokyo overstamp.
Precisely, it is the two circles on top of the mum, pic. attached....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
Wonder if you're still able to contact the Navy Chief who brought it back?

C/
I doubt it. I didn't buy it from him directly, and for all I know he's passed on. I got it from a gent to whom it was given about 15 years ago. He didn't seem to have much history beyond that the chief had brought it back from Japan after the war, and gave it up those 15 years ago as he didn't see it as having much value. I'm glad he saw it that way, because now I have it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,223 Posts
I doubt it. I didn't buy it from him directly, and for all I know he's passed on. I got it from a gent to whom it was given about 15 years ago. He didn't seem to have much history beyond that the chief had brought it back from Japan after the war, and gave it up those 15 years ago as he didn't see it as having much value. I'm glad he saw it that way, because now I have it!
It's unfortunate that, most of the time, we rarely know anything about the bringback history of the items we add to our collections. Guess the higher prices we have to pay for militaria with proper capture papers are well-justified.

C/
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
15,556 Posts
Very interesting thread and carbines.

Here are picts of my two T30 carbines one is very early number 1532 and has the CC cancelation, the other is later, number 376,042, and has a mistruck, but clearly Tokyo rings. Also notice the size of the Tokyo mark on the side of the receiver changed, as did the size of the secondary marks.

Curious.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
03man, do yours have any kanji on the stocks??? My stock also has the kanji for "30" - I first thought that this was there for Type 30, but after reading "The Early Arisakas", I discovered that one of the authors has a carbine with the same school kanji as mine, and the kanji for "31" !! - Some sort of inventory system??? I thought it a very interesting coincidence to see the two rifles might be "related" somehow....
 

·
Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
15,556 Posts
No, no markings on the stock or elsewhere. Just the canceled mums.

Sweet little carbines, it's hard to believe they are over 100 years old.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top