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I think someone was just asking about this topic...



patm41
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1318 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 08:14:59 AM
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I noticed my Mak really throws the spent casing a good 20 ft.. is this good ? normal ?

cigarman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1369 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 08:33:04 AM
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Yes the casings do fly. The one thing you must consider is whether the spring is worn/wearing and that when that slide goes back that the slide is hitting the frame harder than it should and causing damage.

This may be of particular concern if you shoot the 100+ gr ammo available and the hotter loads.

I shoot only 95 gr and mainly the Baurnaul hp stuff. I replaced my springs with #19 (standards are #17) and it decreased the distance that the spent casings go, but more importantly lowered the felt recoil.

I know some here use the Wolf 100+gr loads and use a #21 spring.

Hope this helps

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In Theory there is no difference between theory and practice.

In Practice, there is.


cowdawg
Gunboards Member



USA
31 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 10:24:45 AM
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I have the 19# springs in my maks and yes they shoot the casings a long ways even with the heavier springs.

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"Teds of Beverly Hills" Home of the "Foil wrapped" baked potato.


WillRuss
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
683 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 10:29:03 AM
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I used to go nuts replacing springs on all my pistols with heavier ones, but I've now switched back to all original weights. I agree with cigarman that it could damage your frame if your spring is worn. I would suggest, however, you also consider replacing it with a new "stock weight" spring. In my case, my wife finds it much easier to rack the slide that way.

Also, and it could be just me, I found that heavier weighed springs affected my accuracy. I've thought alot about this and I have a theory: I think the heavier spring transfers more of the recoil to the frame a few milliseconds sooner than the stock weight, and the gun begins to flip slightly before the bullet completely exits the barrel. The result, for me anyway, is a couple of inches higher at 10 yards. (I welcome some opinions on this! )

I'm used to shooting .45's and .40 S&W quite a lot, so the "felt recoil" with my Mak is negligible to say the least. (Of course, my Pearce grips absorb quite a lot, too!) I also figure that Mr. Makarov put that particular spring in the design for a reason, and who am I to argue with his time-tested design?

-WR

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"Don't poke the BEAR!"


cigarman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1369 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 2:10:44 PM
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WillRuss,

Good points, but remember that he designed it to fire a military load, and when a different load is substituted, it may require "tweaking" of the spring, etc.

I believe that designing a military firearm for "everyman" may be one of the most daunting tasks immaginable. Think of it--a firearm that must be as usable for a 5'6" 135 pounder and a 6'2" 210 pounder and all of the combinations between these with hands, arms and shoulders to match (or not) all their respective frames .

Again, it is only natural to tweak and modify those same firearms if we have the opportunity.

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In Theory there is no difference between theory and practice.

In Practice, there is.


careless
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
136 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 5:21:54 PM
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WillRuss, actually, I believe the opposite is true. The heavier spring will retard the slide; and it will hit the frame later; not sooner. Think about it, and I am sure you will agree. To the original post; As for cases flying twenty feet! You need new recoil springs! Like NOW! Your cases should be no more than 7-8 feet away.


SlimTim
TN-GA Shooters Forum Moderator



USA
5238 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 7:34:03 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by careless

As for cases flying twenty feet! You need new recoil springs! Like NOW! Your cases should be no more than 7-8 feet away.

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HUH??!!!???

Are you sure it's a Makarov you are shooting? Maks are designed to eject shells either into low earth orbit or the next county, depending on the wind.

SlimTim

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Budweiser's Real Man of Genius: Mr. Gun Show Junkie.

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Better Fred than red!
http://fred08.com

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Georgians, Tennesseans, join your neighbors here!


WillRuss
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
683 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 8:12:46 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by careless

WillRuss, actually, I believe the opposite is true...
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Hmmm...interesting point. One must remember, though, that the slide-to-frame contact is not the only point at which recoil energy is transferred. My reasoning is based on the following:

1) A spring's "weight" is simply an expression of it's resistance to compression. The greater the weight, the greater the resistance between the slide and frame during the firing cycle.

2) No matter which spring is used, the same amount of force is being transferred to the frame as long as the force of the recoil energy is constant as well as the distance traveled by the slide. (Newton's Third Law) This means that you're not changing bullet weights and barrel lengths - just the springs.

3) The shorter brass ejection distance and reduced felt recoil is a result of the reduction of force (and speed) in the slide's impact on the frame at the end of travel.

4) In order for the heavier spring to slow the slide to a greater degree over the same distance, more energy must be stored in the spring or transferred to the frame during the slide travel.

5) Since slightly more energy is transferred to the frame during the first inch of slide travel, for example, with the higher weight spring, barrel flip begins sooner.

It may help to think about it in extremes. Think about using a hypothetical 1000# spring. The slide would never travel the complete length of the barrel since all of the recoil energy would be transferred to the frame by the spring. Energy transfer would be virtually instantaneous as well as muzzle flip. Conversely, a 2# spring would allow the slide to travel virtually unimpeded, transfering all of it's energy to the frame at the rear upon impact. There would be no muzzle flip until the slide-to-frame contact and energy transfer.

Of course, no one would ever use a 1000# or 2# spring, but it illustrates my contention that the higher the spring compression resistance, the sooner the muzzle flip.

Okay folks - you're all welcome to pick apart my hypothesis. :D

-WR

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"Don't poke the BEAR!"


copycats
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
682 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 8:47:29 PM
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Well mine go at least 15feet. Not near as far as my cz, but still a long ways.



RedLeg
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
417 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 10:59:41 PM
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20' is not out of the ordinary, especially on a hop.

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Read between the lines, criticize the words they're selling.
Think for yourself, and feel the walls become sand beneath your feet.
--Queensryche--



Teakwood
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1987 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 11:03:46 PM
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Even with a 21# spring, my brass flies 10 feet or so. However, the overall feel of shooting the pistol is improved with the heavier spring, IMO. Also, I found an improvement in accuracy with the heavier spring.


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Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it.


Spike
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
669 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 11:42:56 PM
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quote:
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SlimTim:
HUH??!!!???
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Does seem a bit short, doesn't it?

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"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


Copperhead Kid
Gunboards Member



62 Posts
Posted - 01/09/2004 : 03:17:38 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Spike

Does seem a bit short, doesn't it?

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I'll say! I remember (long ago) changing to the 19# spring, expecting a great reduction in the ejection "oomph" ... the spent cases were still bouncing and ricocheting around my bay at my usual indoor range. One round ricocheted off the side of the bay, bounced up, landed behind the right lens of my shooting glasses and sizzled on my eyelid. HOT POTATO OUCH!

CK


Spike
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
669 Posts
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 12:50:20 AM
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I'm still waiting for someone to calculate the velocity and energy of a spent case.

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"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


North Bender
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2927 Posts
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 03:19:03 AM
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Velocity, energy: I only dimmly remember some equations like that. When we took calculas the only constant was F = (your grade).


bullmack
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
126 Posts
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 5:15:34 PM
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Is it better to use a stock spring and batter your mak with recoil or use a stronger spring and batter it from the extra strength return forward????

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bullmack


Spike
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
669 Posts
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 11:56:47 PM
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quote:
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bullmack:
Is it better to use a stock spring and batter your mak with recoil or use a stronger spring and batter it from the extra strength return forward????
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Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm".

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"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


careless
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
136 Posts
Posted - 01/11/2004 : 10:02:07 AM
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HI Will! Your point number 2. "no matter which spring is used, the same ammount of force is applied to the frame" Not really true. Yes, old Newtons third applies; but the weight of the spring is also a rating of its ability to store/absorb energy. The heavier spring is absorbing/storing energy rather than allowing that energy in the form of slide motion to strike the frame. Since much more energy is stored in the compression of that heavier spring; the frame does not absorb as much energy in the form of shock. Actually, your point number 3 pretty much says that you agree! Point number four: yes, indeed the spring is absorbing more of the force/energy. Number five I would have to take exception with totally. Less energy is being transferred to the frame since the heavier spring is absorbing/storing it; muzzle rise should be less. Regarding the last statement you made about helping to think about it; Are you buying? My head now hurts, and the only thing that will help is a drink!


careless
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
136 Posts
Posted - 01/11/2004 : 10:13:52 AM
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Hey WillRuss, just thought of something. We are looking at force applied to the frame from two different angles. I believe that you are referring to it from the perspective of the frame holding back against the force of the spring. Looking at it from that angle, you may be correct! The frame is the solid platform that all of the force works against. (Well, that and your stiff wrist). I was thinking more in terms of the force absorbed by the frame at the end of the stroke. In which case, I believe what I said is also true. Now I really need that drink! I had to laugh at the post wondering when someone would calculate the energy of the spent case! Good one! All we need now is a NASA physicist to step in and figure the degree of the parabolic arc described by that spent case based on recoil forces applied to it! Oh hell, now we have to figure in atmospheric conditons/ air density at specific temp and humidity!!!! Which bar do you want to meet at?


makarovdotcom
Owner Makarov.com



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 01/11/2004 : 11:25:15 AM
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Careless has it right, IMHO. The key is how the force is transferred to the pistol/your hand. If you use a weak recoil spring, the slide still has considerable velocity when it hits the frame and thereby must stop. If you use a stronger spring, the spring will more gradually apply the recoil force to the frame. Note that you DO want the slide to go all the way back to make sure that it performs all of its tasks (eject the empty case, reset the disconnector, cock the hammer, etc.).

-Karl
 
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