Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been discussing the topic with other collectors, and I don't believe any Carcanos were made in 1919 - just assembled from parts remaining in stock. I've a few with 1919 dated barrels, but those are all on older receivers. I saw a 1919 M91 long rifle on eGun dot de, but the serial number came back to 1917 = a replacement barrel.

But it's not well to jump to conclusions without checking... does anyone have a Carcano receiver marked 1919 on the bottom of the ring? Pics of 1919 barrels will be appreciated, too. Some of the marks are poorly done which might indicate apprentice armorers did some of the work.

Also odd steel codes. In addition to remaining parts being used up, so were odd lots of steel. I've an M91TS marked with FIAT steel - only one I've ever seen, and I've asked around on multiple sites. Anybody have a late war or 1919 Carcano with V ( for Vickers) steel?

BTW, if you do have a 1919 receiver, it will be very, very uncommon. The barrels aren't seen very often, either.

TIA for help with this research!! SW
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Receivers often - but not always - have the YOM stamped on the bottom of the receiver ring. Serial number lists are presently found in two books - the Italian language Carcano book and in "Italy's Battle Rifle" available by PM from Arditi. Steel codes will be on the right barrel flat - or right side of the barrel on round barrels. For example: PO for Poldi - FG for Genoa foundry - it's a long list.

If you wouldn't mind posting the serial number letter prefix - don't need the numerals - just the letters, I or someone else can tell you when the 1919 rifle was actually made. As mentioned, 1919 replacement barrels are not commonly encountered.

M91 long rifles made at Terni in 1917 & 1918 are the most common Carcanos found.

I'm hoping your receiver has 1919 on the bottom - it would really be an oddity. After 1918, the next new M91s weren't made until 1932. SW
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Got 'em!! Thank you!

I think the 1919 M91 replacement barrels were made from odd lots of steel remaining in inventory at Terni. My theory is that little steel remained from the great rifle building push of 1917 - 1918 at Terni, and that's why we see so few 1919 replacement barrels.

This barrel has the AT steel vendor code = in house foundry. To further the 'steel remaining on hand' theory, I have a barrel made of FIAT steel. FIAT has been hand stamped indicating there was only a small quantity of that steel on hand. It is also dated 1919.

Bottom line: it's yet another example how the Italians wasted nothing.

I would not be surprised to find 1919 barrels with obscure steel vendor codes like V for Vickers. SW
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I got this one to further my research on M91TS assembled from parts. No real proof - the receiver isn't dated. which isn't unusual. Let's take a look, though.

Overall pic.


Shot of the underside showing only assembly codes. No date.


Late variation push-on bayonet mount which was quite an improvement over the side mount.


Shot of the serial number on both barrel & receiver which nails down that it came from Albania.


Poor shot of the date. It has been poorly struck which is consistent with the other 1919TS I have.


Then let's consider what it doesn't have... like refurb star on the top tang and no "6 slice pie" mark under the wrist that's seen on so many Carcanos from Albania/Balkans. I leave you to draw your own conclusions on that.



For my part, I still maintain anything with a 1919 barrel date was assembled from parts remaining on hand after the war. SW

**pics are out of order. I'm off to work in a bit & will fix it when I get back**
 

·
Moderator/Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
8,912 Posts
Steve,
Do you have a pic of the 'six slice pie' mark you mentioned? That sounds quite like a mark seen on some Mosin-Nagants that many consider to have been Spanish Civil War-used, with the mark accordingly considered Spanish.
Thanks,
Pat
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Pat,


I thought I had one saved in my unusual marks thread at another site but no. I'm away from home but will post a pic when I return. It's not a large mark - smaller diameter than a dime - and always seen under the wrist. It's seen on Carcanos from Albania/Balkans but not ALL of them.

I've discussed it with fellow forum member, HairyGreek who offered the idea it may be related to somewhere in the Balkans.

I'm not sure how it would relate to the SCW. Yes, there were in fact Carcanos in Spain, but all the marks I've seen came in from Albania. SW
 

·
Moderator/Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
8,912 Posts
No problem, I'm patient!
It sounds exactly like the mark in question. While I'm not a Mosin collector, I do recall seeing a marking that matches both your description and the scale you offered.
Thanks-
Pat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,874 Posts
I think it's just a SCW mark, and the rifles may've moved about the continent after that. Someone on here said it looked like a mark left from a vise. I think the Basque separatist connection, as mentioned on Ithilsdorf's SCW Mosin site, is a bit far-fetched.

This on a non import marked Steyr M88/90. Still haven't seen the mark on a Carcano or Vette;)
 

·
Moderator/Gold Bullet member
Joined
·
8,912 Posts
That's the one I'm thinking of. By and large, the makes/models/quantities of the long arms used in the SCW are almost unusually well documented. I've never heard of Carcanos being used in it, but I've also never been interested in the SCW, much less tracked the data.

Pat
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,628 Posts
"AT" is NOT an "Inhouse Foundry" (of the Fare-Terni) but an Independent Steel Works ( from Blast Furnaces to Rolling Mills) of Acciaierie Terni ( a Company founded by Vickers, Armstrong and the Orlando Family, commonly called "Vickers Terni" or "V-T-Orlando" in the Local Jargon.). It was set up late in the 1800s, for all types of steel productions (Plate, Rails, Beams, Sheets etc.). Due to its British Connections, it also supplied Armour Plate and Ordnance Steel for shipping and artillery...and rifle manufacture also...
although the Leopoldina Hutte ("Poldi") of Kladno, Bohemia ( now Czech Rep.) supplied a lot of the Bolt and Receiver Steel for the 91 Carcano before WW I ( Bohemia, of course, was Part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.). By the 1920s, the AT had developed its own versions of the Poldi steel, and didn't have to rely on the Czechs any More...another twist, the Bolts on pre-1939 Bren Guns made in Britain had Poldi steel in them as did all the ZB LMGs and MGs.

Doc AV
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Here's another example. Shown is an M91 long rifle with a 1920 barrel date. The owner removed the action from the stock to show it's actually a May, 1915 rifle that was refurbed - possibly more than once. SW

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,929 Posts
The above 1920 Terni rifle also has the AT (Acciaierie Terni) mark on its barrel. Pardon the basic question, but does this only mean the steel was made by Acciaierie Terni and the barrel itself by the Terni arsenal? One more quick question, what does the cypher mean on the barrel as well?

Here is a photo of the Acciaierie Terni mark:



And the cypher on the bottom of the barrel near the shank:

 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top