Gunboards Forums banner
1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
397 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know that there is a lot of activity around these carbines nowadays, but I was a little surprised to see that the TS I received from Palmetto yesterday was, evidently, made for the civilian market as it has no letters preceding the four digit serial number. The stock matches the barrel, by the way, and the gun looks to be all original in great condition with a 1936 date. This civilian status was confirmed by two reference books I have. Unfortunately, they provide no info I could find about how these civilian models were used and by whom?
Does anyone here have more information on the FNA Brescia models manufactured for the civilian market?
Here are two all too familiar pic now of the carbine I received out of the box.
3799873

3799874
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,104 Posts
I just received a Beretta M91TS Carcano with no letter prefix. The serial number is on the opposite side it normally would be and the date doesn’t have the fascist Roman numerals before it. Can you check yours to see if it has the Roman numerals before the date or post pictures of it close up? Is your stock shiny at all?

Here’s a link to the post I did inquiring about mine:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
397 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I just received a Beretta M91TS Carcano with no letter prefix. The serial number is on the opposite side it normally would be and the date doesn’t have the fascist Roman numerals before it. Can you check yours to see if it has the Roman numerals before the date or post pictures of it close up? Is your stock shiny at all?

Here’s a link to the post I did inquiring about mine:
I've had some trouble figuring this one out. Of the two reference books I have, the one by Chegia & Simonelli is the only one with a two page list of serial numbers (Pgs 249-250). They have attempted to list every model by manufacturer and serial number range by year. They only list two manufacturers that produced the 'civilian' model of the 91/28 TS without letter prefixes, Beretta and F.N.A. Brescia. Beretta begins in 1932 with SN 174-1411, and then in 1933 with SN 1649-5154. FNA starts in 1931 with SN261-1035. Gardone and Terni are the only manufacturers that have a 1929 date. All of these are military rifles with a letter prefix. Gardone models for '29 begin with A2111 and end with B1961. Terni models for 1929 begin with E7991 and end with I9759. The bottom line is that they don't list a civilian model without a letter prefix made by Beretta or Gardone in 1929.

Yet your stock matches your barrel, so it was obviously manufactured by Beretta in 1929 with a civilian number. I've asked the moderator of the Italian forum about this and he is checking the civilian models out with his colleague, Alberto.

The civilian model I received was manufactured by FNA with a number without the letter prefix stamped on the barrel - with the XIV - and also on the left side of the stock. It has no repair stamp on it. The uniqueness of this example is that it is one of only 9,400 manufactured by FNA between 1931 and 1936. That is the lowest number of any Carcanos made by and factory, with the exception of FNA's 1938 manufacture of 9,000 the Model 38 in 7.35x51.

I should also mention that your rifles is shiny, in my estimation, because it has been pretty heavily sanded and refinished. You can tell on the stock because the rear sling swivel is proud above the wood. normally, the wood would be 1/32" or so above the swivel. It may have been re-blued at some point, though long ago because the bluing shows wear.

I hope I've been helpful. You have a very unique example and you should continue to research it's history.

Chow,

Greg
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
309 Posts
I've had some trouble figuring this one out. Of the two reference books I have, the one by Chegia & Simonelli is the only one with a two page list of serial numbers (Pgs 249-250). They have attempted to list every model by manufacturer and serial number range by year. They only list two manufacturers that produced the 'civilian' model of the 91/28 TS without letter prefixes, Beretta and F.N.A. Brescia. Beretta begins in 1932 with SN 174-1411, and then in 1933 with SN 1649-5154. FNA starts in 1931 with SN261-1035. Gardone and Terni are the only manufacturers that have a 1929 date. All of these are military rifles with a letter prefix. Gardone models for '29 begin with A2111 and end with B1961. Terni models for 1929 begin with E7991 and end with I9759. The bottom line is that they don't list a civilian model without a letter prefix made by Beretta or Gardone in 1929.

Yet your stock matches your barrel, so it was obviously manufactured by Beretta in 1929 with a civilian number. I've asked the moderator of the Italian forum about this and he is checking the civilian models out with his colleague, Alberto.

The civilian model I received was manufactured by FNA with a number without the letter prefix stamped on the barrel - with the XIV - and also on the left side of the stock. It has no repair stamp on it. The uniqueness of this example is that it is one of only 9,400 manufactured by FNA between 1931 and 1936. That is the lowest number of any Carcanos made by and factory, with the exception of FNA's 1938 manufacture of 9,000 the Model 38 in 7.35x51.

I should also mention that your rifles is shiny, in my estimation, because it has been pretty heavily sanded and refinished. You can tell on the stock because the rear sling swivel is proud above the wood. normally, the wood would be 1/32" or so above the swivel. It may have been re-blued at some point, though long ago because the bluing shows wear.

I hope I've been helpful. You have a very unique example and you should continue to research it's history.

Chow,

Greg
I think the new imports are proving the previously published serial numbers were based on the information they had at the time and have become outdated as new lots are uncovered. I‘ve seen plenty of examples of serial numbers that fall outside the ranges in the charts since these PW Arms imports arrived, and own a couple myself. It’s also clear that Baretta was producing some version of the TS in 1929. I’ve seen several examples. Arendell and Woodrum address the existence of 1929 produced Baretta models in their recently published Italy’s Battle Rifle. It will be interesting to see the new research avenues that these new imports open up.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
309 Posts
I have a civilian FNA Brescia that ended up with the Italian Navy.
That’s pretty cool.

The term “civilian“ seems to be misleading when it comes to Carcanos. When I think of “civilian”, I think of myself going down to Bass Pro shop and picking up something off the shelf. I‘m not sure these were ever available to the common Italian. From what I understand, they may have been initially meant for government officials who had a need to be armed, but it seems like a lot ended up in the hands of the actual military as well. Maybe its a language thing. Hopefully all these new examples in public hands will inspire researchers to flesh out the full story behind what we are calling civilian production.
 

·
Moderator / Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
8,085 Posts
I just talked to Alberto Simonelli about the civilian models and who could purchase these ... he said these were sold to civilians in the various shooting clubs in Italy such as the Il Tiro Segno Nazionale at the time and to members of the Convitti Nazionali ... Convitto nazionale - Wikipedia ... I will let someone who reads and understands Italian explain this. He did say there was also a Convitti Militari but these individuals would get the issued military firearms to use.
He has a page from a document that shows the price of the various firearms that they could purchase, he is going to scan it and send it to me, once I get it I will post it.

These recent imports are opening up the different models and serial numbers on them, these were based upon what they had seen and speculated now it is changing this all, we are finding more and more examples that change it all and this will help us get better data on this all.

Patrick
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
397 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Fascinating! All of this just makes the Carcano line more interesting. It would be great if everyone who has recently purchased one of these PA Armory carbine imports would post their manufacturer, serial number and date here, as well as any interesting information such as bayonet type, stamps on the stock, unique markings, etc.
 

·
Moderator / Silver Bullet member
Joined
·
8,085 Posts
I just created a post to add firearms too, it is a sticky thread

Patrick
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top