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Found this M91 at a garage sale for $60, nice condition with cleaning rod, sling but a mismatched bolt. Noticed AZF stamped on receiver and from collecting MN 91's that this is the Austrian capture stamp also the leather sling is SA marked but the rifle is not SA marked. Could this rifle have been used by the Finns and is the AZF stamp uncommon and what does it do to it's value. I've collected German, Japanese, US weapons for a number of years and have started picking up Russian and SA marked rifles when I find them. I'd appreciate any help. Thanks, Chuck
 

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Nice find! Is there a cartouche on the stock? Does the stock match? If a mismatched stock or reworked stock, it would be about a $300-$400 piece. Maybe more with the proper Austrian cartouche. Check to see if it has import marks and also if it can chamber a 6.5mm Mannlicher Schoneaur cartridge. A-H converted about 47,500 Carcanos to accept the Greek cartridge. I've come across two-one of which is import marked.

Nice find!!!
 

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The rifle is not import marked, can't tell about the caliber and the stock looks scrubbed then renumbered in between the original numbers to match.
 

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You have not yet indicated the data of this gun that would enable us to identify it further (e.g. year of manufacture). The stock here first seemed like ash to me, but actually is beech, I would say upon looking at the second set of pictures farther down in the thread, and ít has obviously been replaced (originally it was dark walnut), just as the gun has lateron been dark reblued. Original blue of Brescia rifles is a bit bluer and lighter, and less dull. The AZF stamp is a bit uncommon, but not rare, and does not yet command extra prices. Only a minority of Austrian capture guns were rechambered, the majority were left in the original calibre. Try to chamber a 6,5x54 MS round with a disassembled bolt body (without striker) very gently and only with the lightest effort, to see whether the cartridge chambers, or whether the bolt stops.

Of special interest to me would be the front sight base. Is it on a ring going around the barrel, or directly on a post soldered to the barrel? Same question for the rear sight base.

Overall a nice gun that I would not despise. In view of the slightly risen price level (that has expanded the prices' range rather than lifted the average price), I would say it could be placed between 100 and 150 US-$; less if the stock has been heavily reworked. Under the peculiar conditions of the US market, the legal "antique" status may often command an unjustified premium of $ 50 or more, with many buyers. The sling would add some extra $$; might have been a Fucile M 91/38 sling originally, but did hardly belong to this weapon. The price quoted in an answer before is completely irreal.

Best regards
Carcano
 

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1897 brescia, according to the pics. i highly doubt finn use, the AZF mark was used during ww1 on captured rifles. mosins are something we see more of, but the austrians were fighting the italians then, also.
no idea on price, i'd just be happy to find an older brescia. y'all have a good day, Keith
 

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I disagree on my estimate being out of line. AZF markings may not command a premium for Carcano collectors, but they do for Austro-Hungarian collectors.
 

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*Shrug*
This is an Italian firearms board, not an Austro-Hungarian. No idea whether an AZF mark may command a stellar price in Outer Ruritania or on Clipperton Island, nor whether you know the single collector you will immediately pay $ 1000 for any Torre Annunziata rifle because his ancestors stem from there... Feel free to disagree as long as you want, I know the Carcano market and you don't.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Carcano, The front sight and rear sight are on rings, the stock looks like it had a cartouche above the serial number before it was scrubbed.
Thanks, Chuck
 

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I know the Carcano market and you don't.
:rolleyes:

Worldwide? Nation wide? Which nation? I do not feel it is possible to say 'X' rifle is always worth 'Y' dollars. There are simply too many variables. If I am offered an excellent example of a scarce specimen, I do not object to paying more for it. The supply is certainly not growing.

Perhaps you should publish the 'acceptable' values of various rifles and make it a point to thoroughly chastise anyone who deviates from that carefully-considered list by more than a few dollars.
SW
 

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I must admit that I'm quite surprised and dismayed to learn that I do not know the Carcano market. While it is not the main focus of my collection, I have managed to put together a modest collection of the rifles, including some tough to find variations.

With all due respect, I realize that this is a Carcano board and not an Austro-Hungarian board, but I think we do a great disservice if we do not recognize the scarcity of these pieces. Yes, hundreds of thousands were captured by the Austro-Hungarians during WWI, but they are seldom encountered today. Those that do show up are nearly always post-WWI Italian reworks. Finding an AZF Carcano in 6.5MS with the original Austrian stock cartouche would be a phenomenal find, as the survival rate of the 47,500 converted pieces is likely to be extremely low. That said, the example in question is still an uncommon find of a rather scarce rifle.

Regarding the availability of Carcanos and their prices on the market, in the last eight large west-coast shows I have been to, I have seen a grand total of four Carcanos. Of those, two were carbines with bayonets removed and the other two were imported/mismatched 6.5mm Beretta short rifles. They seem to have dried up on this side of the country compared to past years.
 

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I must admit that I'm quite surprised and dismayed to learn that I do not know the Carcano market.
You are most welcome. Please be, resp. please feel so. To learn this abóut the limits of your knowledge is a beneficient effect of attending this forum. Actually, of attending *any* forum.

Yes, hundreds of thousands were captured by the Austro-Hungarians during WWI, but they are seldom encountered today.
They are not common, true. They are not rare either. Presently, the AZF stamp does not justify an objective surcharge. If a given buyer is all hot and horny because he has ALWAYS wanted such piece for 20 years (but never bothered to look around properly), and now will pay 2000 bucks to finally own it, this is his right. Has nothing to do with value and appropriate price range, though.

Those that do show up are nearly always post-WWI Italian reworks.
Yes, like this one.

Finding an AZF Carcano in 6.5MS with the original Austrian stock cartouche would be a phenomenal find, as the survival rate of the 47,500 converted pieces is likely to be extremely low.
I agree. Sounds almost as if you prepare to sell yours, and are ploughing the ground ;-).

Carcano
 

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Carcano "AZF"

Carcano, I am surprised at you because you are usually a wealth of knowledge. (I guess you got up on the wrong side of bed). Please, no flame intended but wheather we are on the Italian or Austrian site should not make a differance! This is a "learning & teaching" site-Right? Number one;it is a Carcano and number two it was captured by Austria during WWI. This thread is certainly on the right board.
I have collected WWI weapons since 1993 and I have seen a total of 3 of these. Pres1981 I agree with you on the scarcity but would say it is worth (to a serious WWI collector) more than $500. I have owned 2 and sold the worst (10 years ago) for $550. This Carcano would fetch even more in Austria! The one I kept was a Brescia from 1897. The stock matches but from a 1921 restock. Jt is stamped on the stock (German). It does have a few blood stains on it and are obviously from WWII.
Austrian WWI capture rifles are highly sought after. I have never seen one with an original stock on the loose. I would pay a lot for it. After all, that is what makes a market. Suppy and Demand.

Keeping the peace!
dg13
 

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No intention to sell anything. I'm just trying to provide some useful information to a board member who happened to stumble onto one of these. I do not have one of the 6.5MS conversions WITH a stock cartouche (I know of only a few in the US), so I'm not trying to plough the ground to sell mine. Such an example would definitely be a nice find though.

I think this thread has exhausted itself so I wish you luck in your collecting.
 

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I think this thread has exhausted itself so I wish you luck in your collecting.
Or maybe rather your lack of knowledge has exhausted yourself.

And as to Austrian capture rifles, feel free to insert some quotations from the research of Heino Hintermeier - if you have ever come across that name.

Be that as it may - learning experiences are what these boards are all about, surprise. Whether them enjoys them (as I do, every day anew) or whether one huffs and puffs "dismayedly" when experiencing one (such as you did) is a question of attitude.

Carcano
 

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Prez1981 had posted about his own (post-war-reworked) "AZF" Fucile 91 before, and had posted a pic. Here you have it:

* * *

Prez1981
Posted - 09/16/2004 : 11:08:56 AM
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Here is a very interesting Carcano Model 1891 that I received from another collector in a trade. The rifle is fairly nice overall and was sprisingly import marked (haven't seen imported long rifles around here). The carcano is a mismatch, but a 1915 Terni that is AZF marked (as seen more frequently on Mosin-Nagants) and the stock has a rework cartouche dated 1919. This is only the second AZF marked M91 I have ever come across and am pleased to have it in my Austro-Hungarian WWI collection. Any comments would be appreciated. Anyone know how many were issued to Austrian troops in WWI?

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/prez1981/200491611842_Austrian M91.jpg
Download Attachment:
92.19 KB



DocAV
Posted - 09/20/2004 : 01:25:40 AM
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Is your M91 AZF also marked "It u Gr."? ( signifying chamber reamed to accept Both 6,5 Italian and 6,5 Greek Ammo ( Austria had loads of 6,5 x54 Greek ammo in factory in 1914 (Hirtenberg/ G. Roth).

The rifles did see fairly large usage both front line and rear echelon.
Remaining rifles were returned to Italy as part of the Treaty reparations in 1919.



JPS
Posted - 09/20/2004 : 02:34:49 AM
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Yo Gents,

AZF marked Carcano's do not turn up all that often. Nice find! I have an example in my collection as well.

The reason a percentage of these rifles were rechambered to 6.5x54mm Mannlicher early in the war was due to the large supply of Greek contract ammunition on hand in Austria in 1914. The A-H Army comandeered a large number of Greek Model 1903/14s that were in WIP at Steyr when the war started. The Greek contract also included several million rounds of ammunition, which were in production at one of the ammunition manufacturer's concurrent with the order for rifles. The exact arsenal escapes me and I am not at home right now, so I do not have access to my notes. Doc, perhaps you can chime in with the correct name.........Herter? Hirtenburg? Hertemburger?........something like that. They say that the memory is the first thing to go?.................I think?

The converted rifles were used with both Italian as well as Greek ammunition. The headspace problem created by the slightly longer chamber was not considered serious enough to stop the A-H military from issuing the converted Carcano's with captured Italian ammunition when it was available.

As larger numbers of Carcano's were captured, along with huge stocks of Italian ammunition, these Carcano conversions were stopped, since standard ammunition was plentiful. However, the A-Hs continued to produce 6.5x54mm ammunition throughout the war.

Late in the war, when supplies of captured Russian 6.5 Japanese ammunition began to run low, a percentage of the captured Russian issue Type 30 and Type 38 Arisakas were chamber reamed to accept the Greek cartridges. I have one of these late war conversions in my collection as well, which has been fitted with a M95 Mannlicher rear sight leaf.

When I get home, I'll post some photos of these rifles and add them to this thread.

I have a captured and reworked Italian Carcano bayonet in my collection as well. I acquired it from John Wall. It has been converted for issue to an A-H NCO with the addition of a pommel swivel to accept the A-H NCO troddel or bayonet knot. I have seen other examples in books, but never first hand. These bayonets are much rarer than the AZF marked rifles. (Thanks again John!) I'll post photos of the bayonet as well.

Have a great weekend.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

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I must admit that I'm quite surprised and dismayed to learn that I do not know the Carcano market. While it is not the main focus of my collection, I have managed to put together a modest collection of the rifles, including some tough to find variations.

With all due respect, I realize that this is a Carcano board and not an Austro-Hungarian board, but I think we do a great disservice if we do not recognize the scarcity of these pieces. Yes, hundreds of thousands were captured by the Austro-Hungarians during WWI, but they are seldom encountered today. Those that do show up are nearly always post-WWI Italian reworks. Finding an AZF Carcano in 6.5MS with the original Austrian stock cartouche would be a phenomenal find, as the survival rate of the 47,500 converted pieces is likely to be extremely low. That said, the example in question is still an uncommon find of a rather scarce rifle.

Regarding the availability of Carcanos and their prices on the market, in the last eight large west-coast shows I have been to, I have seen a grand total of four Carcanos. Of those, two were carbines with bayonets removed and the other two were imported/mismatched 6.5mm Beretta short rifles. They seem to have dried up on this side of the country compared to past years.

Agreed! An AZF stamped Carcano is a real find for the WW1 Collector and takes it right out of the usual Carcano price range. Carcano...., I'll buy all you can find for your quoted price and add another 25% out of kindness!! ;)

- Best regards! Mike
 

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Mike, pay as much as want. Nobody bars you. Others know better, as to relative and absolute rarity, but please guard your illusions... they are all we have :).

PeterS
Germany
Posted - 09/16/2004 : 11:59:40 AM
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Hi, very nice find!!

after the Mosin-Nagant M91 the Carcanos were the most captured weapons by the autrian forces in the WWI.

about 49.500 rifles were tranformed to use the 6,5 Carcano and the 6,5 greek ammuntion. These weapons were stamped with the AZF marking on the barrel and "It.u.GR." on the buttstock. At the August 1916 the conversions stops.

at the 12th batle of the Isonzo the italian army lost about 1.000.000 men (most of them were prisoners), so you could image how much Carcanos the k.u.k. forces captured...

(taken form "In der Stunde der Not" from Heino Hintermeier)

I don't know if only the transformed Carcanos marked with "AZF" or, like at the mosin, some who were repaired at the AZF, too.



John Wall
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 10:52:30 AM
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Hi John and Peter.
Super rifle, John! I'll never pass another long Carcano without looking for an "AZH" or the running bear again. Interestingly, I found the bayonet for one of these captured Carcanos at the big Brimfield (Massachseutts) Antique market (6,000 dealers) a few years ago. It was the standard Carcano bayonet, but had the A/H rifle sling swivel mounted on its pommel, as was the practice with A/H Army NCO bayonets as I recall.



Devo
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 12:29:44 PM
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How different are 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Greek? What was the modification to allow the Carcano to accept both? Was this a good idea, or a desperate wartime expedient?



PeterS
Germany
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 4:29:11 PM
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i saw at a little show here around the corner one of these k.u.k.-carcano bayonett, too. But i don’t buy it so You can call me an id... Every time i think about these bayonets, i fell sick.....

the carcano ammo is 6,5x52 and the greek ammo is 6,5x54, but after the transformation the carcanos don’t realy work with the carcno ammo, so thy shoul use only the greek one. The reason for the transformation was the lack of italian ammo. The greek ammo were made in austria for some their machine guns.



Krag
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 4:57:32 PM
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I always wondered why the Austrians converted the Carcs to 6.5x54. If they captured such vast quantities of Italian soldiers and equipment why didn't they capture sufficient ammunition?

According to Hintermeier's book, A-H also captured large numbers of Japanese Type 30 Arisakas from the Russians and reissued them but they never rechambered those for a more "readily available" cartridge???



Carcano
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 8:06:08 PM
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Many Carcanos went back to Italy after 1918. I own such a gun myself. It is my understanding that only some underwent the "Jt.u.Gr." chamber reaming.



PeterS
Germany
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 9:45:57 PM
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Hi Krag,

the converting stops in August 1916 and the 12th Isonzo Battle (who the k.u.k. forces captured the huge quantities of Italian soldiers and equipment was from the 24.10.-02.12 in 1917.

The k.u.k. tried to convert the Arisakas to the 6,5 Greek, too, but only two guns. They didn't work with these Ammo and the "costs" were to high.



Carcano
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 04:37:22 AM
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Thanks, Peter - I am glad to read my impression corroborated !
In fact, true "Jt.u.Gr." marked guns should be very rare, because I would assume that the Italians did not leave them in this condition when they got them back.



Krag
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 5:08:01 PM
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Peter - interesting. I have Heino's book IN DER STUNDE DER NOT but unfortunately my ability to translate German is very (v-e-r-y!) limited and I've not been able to get all I'd like out of it.

I wish the American educational system placed more priority on students learning foreign languages. It would have made life so much easier for me.



JPS
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 06:37:43 AM
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Yo Gents,

AZF marked Carcano's do not turn up all that often. Nice find! I have an example in my collection as well.

The reason a percentage of these rifles were rechambered to 6.5x54mm Mannlicher early in the war was due to the large supply of Greek contract ammunition on hand in Austria in 1914. The A-H Army comandeered a large number of Greek Model 1903/14s that were in WIP at Steyr when the war started. The Greek contract also included several million rounds of ammunition, which were in production at one of the ammunition manufacturer's concurrent with the order for rifles. (The exact arsenal escapes me and I am not at home right now, so I do not have access to my notes)

As larger numbers of Carcano's were captured, along with huge stocks of Italian ammunition, these Carcano conversions were stopped, since standard ammunition was plentiful. However, the A-Hs continued to produce 6.5x54mm ammunition throughout the war.

Late in the war, when supplies of captured Russian 6.5 Japanese ammunition began to run low, a percentage of the captured Russian issue Type 30 and Type 38 Arisakas were chamber reamed to accept the Greek cartridges. I have one of these late war conversions in my collection as well, which has been fitted with a M95 Mannlicher rear sight leaf.

When I get home, I'll post some photos of these rifles and add them to this thread.

Regarding the bayonet mentioned by John Wall, I am happy to say that John was in a charitable mood and traded the bayonet to me several years ago. It has been converted for issue to an A-H NCO with the addition of a pommel swivel to accept the NCO troddel or bayonet knot. I have seen other examples in books, but never first hand. These bayonets are much rarer than the rifles. (Thanks again John!) I'll post photos of the bayonet as well.

Have a great weekend.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

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Ronin48
Posted - 10/27/2004 : 10:57:05 AM
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The fourth, a 1897 long rifle, accuracy marked with sling and rod, the second best one in my Carcano pile, was removed from the rack after a coule of fellows made the comment that it was an Austria-capture weapon.
For the record the rifle was BB 282, Brescia, 1897 and the bolt 2M8560.

On the right chamber flat, overstamped on the date, is AZF. This meant nothing to me until the above noted comment was made. I then pulled my copy of "Handbook of Militry Rifle Marks, 1866-1950" by Hoffman and Schott and noted the following under 'Austria.' "17. Stamp of the "Artilleriezeugsfabrik" (AZF), or Artillery Arsenal Factory, on the rear sight of an 1888/90 Mannlicher rifle. This arsenal was not a major manufacturer of rifles but did much repair and reconditioning work. Its mark on foreign arms indicates issue of captured arms." (...)

This raises the question, how did an Austrian-captured Carcano get to the US, an arms sale by Austria to a US importer?



PeterS
Germany
Posted - 10/27/2004 : 11:41:25 PM
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Hi Eloldehombre1,
I think, these rifle get after the great war back to Italia.



DMala
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 2:34:02 PM
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once the war was over, Austria returned to Italy the captured weapons, together with tens of throusands of Austrian weapons as part of war damage reparation agreements. In fact, Italy acquired thousand of Mosins captured by the Austrians on the Russian front, which in turn Italy sold to Finland some years later.
 

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Interesting thread I need to find me one of these AZF carcano's
I'm hoping to hear from Carcano. So you can have one as soon as I get mine!! :D

Re: the bayonet, here is a pic of one. It will go with my AZF M91 as soon as it arrives.
 
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