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Rifle one is a 1933 Tula M1891/30.
Rifle two is a 1921 Izhevsk M1891/30 that started out as a "Dragoon" length rifle with the konovalov rear sight, hence the area machined out on the chamber area, and at a later date was "updated" to the 1891/30 stats regarding metric rear sights, a front globe and post front sight, and some minor fittings and stock furniture changes.

50/50 chance that should you disassemble the 1921 Izhevsk, you'll discover an earlier manufactured receiver. On the other hand, it may be a 1921 receiver, which is perhaps equally interesting. I cannot tell from the picture if the hammer and sickle is struck over a Czar-era double-headed eagle emblem, or whether it is just there on its own. Congrats! I especially like the 1921 1891/30 so-called "ex-Dragoon."
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
daveccarlson

Thanks for the information, it is nice to know the history of the guns I have. I plan on using the 1933 as a shooter since it is an electro penciled force match, but since the 1921 is original matching and an "ex-dragoon", it will probably be a safe queen, that my son will get sometime in the future.
 

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flyboy, there is "original matching" and "force matching" when it comes to refurbs. And most refurbs, will be "force matched". We'd need to see detailed macro photos of all serial numbers on the parts of this 1921 ex-Dragoon as Dave has already identified it as. It is also hard to see on the top receiver flat if there is a Soviet stamp over the imperial stamp also as Dave mentioned.

The odds are, since it's an ex-Dragoon rifle and has been updated to 91/30 status, is the parts are also force matched during the refurbishment process. It's common on nearly all refurbished rifles when the Soviets engaged in this process. It's just normal. Electro penciled or old numbers were ground off and new ones restamped to match the barrel. You will be able to see grinding marks in most cases that new numbers are stamped over. There are certain things to look for in original matching numbers 91/30s. Mostly encountered as non import marked rifles, occasionally as imports from Finland and other bringbacks or other weird circumstances they entered the country before import marks were required. But will be very interested to see some detailed pics of your ex-Dragoon and see if it is indeed original matching.
 

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Well, this year is the centennial of U.S. entry into WWI and the Russian Revolution. When that 1921 was manufactured, The Bolsheviks were at war with Poland, V.I. Lenin was still alive, and the Bolsheviks were consolidating control over the former Russian empire in the Civil War... In four years, that rifle will be 100 years old!

flyboy, as ol' Iron Col., a seasoned collector put it: it can be hard to tell, but let the original font, size and shape of the barrel chamber area serial number be your guide. The fact that it was once a dragoon-length rifle converted to the then "new Red Army-specs" for a vintovka ca. 1930s/1940s suggests one or more rebuilds. Sometimes the overhaul was minimal. Other times, it was rather more extensive. A hint will be stock fittings: milled (older) or stamped (newer), sling slots (screwed-in? older, absent? early 1940s, pressed? later), and proof marks on smaller parts: bow and arrow? pre-5-year plan, fletched arrow in a triangle? post-1929, and for Tula a small hammer vs. a five-pointed star. The ex-Soviet rifles have serial numbers on the butt plate, the magazine assembly, the bolt, and the barrel that should "match" but were probably force matched like I.C. wrote.

Enjoy your Mosin rifles! They are quirky and have a lot of crazy 19th-century features and a relative absence of "ergonomics" but they are loads of fun to shoot and also collect.
 
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