[missrosalita37]

I posted a thread a week ago ….and had many responses from you all. I just wanted to bring this back to the Forum for update and closure. Here is the response I received from Anny Hendricks of Ars Mechanica Foundation:

Dear Sir,

This is a Mauser rifle that was produced between 1936 and 1940.
We have no other info in our records,
Best regards,

Anny Hendriks
Assistant to Robert Sauvage
CEO
Ars Mechanica Foundation
The Herstal Group Foundation
Tel. +32/4/240 8911
Fax +32/4/240 8816

 

[John Wall]

Hi Jim,
I presume that they conducted their research based on the serial number you sent them., either 600 or 5199? If so, their response tells you when the barreled receiver or stock was made. The 10+ other questions still remain unanswered.
Regards,
John

 

[missrosalita37]

I tend to SOMEWHAT agree with you John! But 10 questions?…I don't know about that, sounds like a bit of Hyperbole?

What we DO KNOW, is that THIS matching barrel/bolt/receiver serial numbered 600 WAS made in Belgium between 1936-1940. What research has led me to believe, the stock is 1940-41 and likewise has a matching serial number to itself of 1599…BUT, of the almost exact timeframe of the action manufacture.

There are the questions regarding the front & rear sights dated 1947 and the 1948 stamp on the receiver base, ….1947 and 1948 being so close, it might be assumed this rifle survived the war staying in Belgium, and "re-manufactured" or at least "reconditioned" for export contract in 1948. I think the "made in late 1948 at the end of the single broach cut and beginning of the double broach cut" is now debunked.

Radom46, you were correct in your assessment ("The 7 and 8 in square could indicate 1947 and 1948 and the A in a square for a prewar FN part"). My M1930 has the "A in a square" in addition to the 7 and 8 in the square assumed to be stamped later in this M1930's life. The trigger guard where the "A in a square" is stamped, also has the "S" date code on the rear portion of the trigger guard dating it as "1940". (See attached thumbnail below). This "A in a square" coincides with Anny Hendriks of Ars Mechanica Foundation's production date of 1936-1940.

Now, it is not too far a leap of assumption, since nobody has been able to definitively say otherwise, that since this rifle was in Belgium at the date of German invasion, it may have been constructed by the Germans from parts found at the factory (hence, the German practice of using a stock take down bolt), put into action and never leaving the country. I say this because the stock and action are of the same time, 1936-1940, prior to invasion of 1940 AND the installation of the German take down bolt sometime after 1940 but obviously before 1945. Yet, it seems to have Belgium trimester stamps dated 1947-48 inferring after the war, the Belgians did "something" to it…the assumption could be as I stated (?) ("re-manufactured" or at least "reconditioned" for export contract in 1948).

I guess it boils down to…Who has a better explanation, or should I say "story". Still, we have nobody to identify the cartouche?

In my estimation, it certainly defies the "parts gun" theory! I suspected, when I held this gun in my hands, fired her and looked at all the exact fitment (Thank you Martin08!) it was not a parts gun…unless you concur with my origination story…then yeah, it's a parts gun that the Germans built upon finding it at the factory in 1940! …..It seems to defy this prior assessment, "It cannot, as it stands now, with any certainty be traced to any single buyer, country (was there any doubt of country w/Belgian proofs? or agency. Its many serial numbers (?) (of which it has 2, stock & action!) and cleansed receiver ring (?) mean that it could have been assembled at any time from the Korean War to the Saturday before you bought it"!

The possibility of origination can be many things, this is just my best guess scenario, not carved in stone. If anybody can come up with something more definitive…I'm certainly open to additional speculation. At any rate, it won't be going anywhere and will happily remain in my collection.

Sincerely and with thanks to all who responded to help me date this fine rifle,
Jim
Juneau, Alaska

 

[runner]

What we now know is the barreled receiver was produced at FN sometime between 1936 and 1940. That is a large span when FN was producing rifles for a large number of international customers. As the stock has a separate serial number, we know these two components began as parts of two different rifles. The bolt takedown disk in the stock strongly implies the rifle originally mounted in that stock saw German use sometime in the wartime period. I think it is logical to assume that the current receiver/stock combination was joined sometime after the war. If the Germans had joined them the stock would have been numbered to match the receiver and/or it would show other signs of German rework. I am sure this is what John was referencing when he stated the rifle, (in its current condition) could have been assembled at any time.

With its blank receiver ring, we may never know the original customer for the rifle. Eventually a matching example with the stock marking your rifle exhibits will turn up and then the origins of the stock will be known. New information turns up here and in Europe all the time.

regards, runner

 

[missrosalita37]

Thanks Runner for adding to this. As to "the Germans would have numbered to match"…unless the stock was also "in the parts bin"! It's just as easy to "assume" the Germans installed the stock….it has their fingerprints on it (The take down bolt)! Was "FN (was) producing rifles for a large number of international customers" after 1940 when it is very conceivable, according to Anny and the "A in a square" that this gun was made in 1940? I didn't find FN contracts to be the case in my research once the Germans occupied Belgium in the Spring of 1940.

"Blank receiver ring"….could this not imply, it never had a customer? Like I stated earlier, it shows absolutely no evidence of being scrubbed.

But I look forward to another turning up.

Jim

 

[geladen]

What we know is:

The stock is not original to the barreled action and shows signs of German use and of refinishing. It has an unidentified marking. The finger grooves are unusual but they are known on 1940 Colombian FN1930 short rifles.

The barreled action is single broach cut.

The barreled action is uncrested, in 8X57, with a serial number of 600.

FN dated the barreled action 1936-1940. They did not say how they dated it.

It may be that FN simply sold no uncrested 8X57 carbines post WWII.

So, it would appear that you have a pre WWII carbine in a pre WWII mismatched, refinished stock.

If the barreled action were post WWII, it would be early (because of the single broach cut).

I remain unconvinced about dating FN products by one side of the square inspection mark being missing (or poorly stamped).

Regards,
Bill

 

[missrosalita37]

Thanks Bill. Yup, mostly accurate objective assessment.

Except I think we can throw this one out: "If the barreled action were post WWII, it would be early (because of the single broach cut)". It's already been dated as PRE-WWII by Ars Mechanica Foundation, The Herstal Group Foundation.

I am beginning to believe the cartouche has the possibility of being an Inspector's stamp. (RE: John Ball describing one of John Wall's Belgian rifle's stock stamp.)
.

Thank,
Jim

 

[RyanE]

The funny looking stamp on the side and wrist of the stock is an Eagle/CL. This is a pre-1927 inspection of the depot at Cassel. "Cassel" became "Kassel" in 1927. You see this stamp on many Gew98s reworked in the 1920s.

So, stock is almost certainly a Gew98 stock that has been cut down to work with this action. I doubt this was a period modification.

Forgive me for not seeing this thread sooner...

 

[missrosalita37]

RyanE…I'm not thinking a "GEW98 cutdown". The finger grooves are well placed for a carbine, not a full stock. I've seen "faux" carbines attempted using cut downs like you describe, it never looks "authentic carbine" even to an untrained eye. BUT, I'll research that possibility.

I'll also start researching the "Eagle/CL …Cassel/Kassel 1927 stamp" also. GREAT LEAD! Many thanks for the input.

Jim

 

[geladen]

Thanks Bill. Yup, mostly accurate objective assessment.

Except I think we can throw this one out: "If the barreled action were post WWII, it would be early (because of the single broach cut)". It's already been dated as PRE-WWII by Ars Mechanica Foundation, The Herstal Group Foundation.

I am beginning to believe the cartouche has the possibility of being an Inspector's stamp. (RE: John Ball describing one of John Wall's Belgian rifle's stock stamp.)
.

Thank,
Jim

Yes, FN dated it as pre WWII. However, your front sight, rear sight, receiver, and sear all have number in a square inspection markings. As I posted before:


I just learned something. I thought I had remembered seeing mostly letter in a square inspection markings on FN rifles. That's true for the earlier ones. I just checked those FN rifles and carbines I have that are readily available and here is what I found:

Number in a square
FN1950 1952 Baudouin
FN1950 1951 Leopold
FN1950 Haitian
FN1950 Moroccan
FN1950 IOB
FN1950 POLITIE
FN1950 Israeli
(all are double broach cut)

Letter in a square
FN M1935 Peruvian
FN1930 1940 Colombian
FN1930 Chinese (actually letter in a circle)
FN1930 Venezuelan

That's pretty apparent that the letter in a square is pre WWII and the number in a square is post WWII. As for the letter in a circle, I suspect they had two inspectors using the same initial.

Regards,
Bill

 

[John Wall]

Like I stated earlier, it shows absolutely no evidence of being scrubbed.
Jim

Jim,
Your pictures tell a different story. The proof and inspection marks on the barrel should be the same depth as on the receiver ring. They aren't. Your receiver was scrubbed massively, then polished and reblued.

It's still a bubbalated parts gun.
John

 

[RyanE]

RyanE…I'm not thinking a "GEW98 cutdown". The finger grooves are well placed for a carbine, not a full stock. I've seen "faux" carbines attempted using cut downs like you describe, it never looks "authentic carbine" even to an untrained eye. BUT, I'll research that possibility.

I'll also start researching the "Eagle/CL …Cassel/Kassel 1927 stamp" also. GREAT LEAD! Many thanks for the input.

Jim

Not an expert on the Imperial stuff, but some Gew98 had finger grooves. Of course, it is also very possible that these grooves were cut when the stock was cutdown.

Some pics of the Cassel marking on Gew98.

 

[missrosalita37]

Sorry John, can't buy it! The only bubba who touched this rifle is probably long dead and buried in his native home of either Germany or Belgium.

But you are certainly entitled to your opinion…it stands one among many. But thanks for your contribution. This ain't a war, just a battle!

Jim

 

[missrosalita37]

Not an expert on the Imperial stuff, but some Gew98 had finger grooves. Of course, it is also very possible that these grooves were cut when the stock was cutdown.

Some pics of the Cassel marking on Gew98.

Ryan,

YUP! I found that posting too! You nailed the cartouche TOO!!…THANK YOU!

Now, a cutdown looks somewhat possible…and the stock in that post you gave me looks extremely similar with the exception of the rear sling mount (Not the part on the sling itself, but the mount as it attaches to the stock!). I'm curious…do you know what the cartouche stands for? Is it a "depot marking" for weapon repairs? Is it possible this rifle was sent to a depot for repair in the original FN stock?

Damn (If it's OK to say that here!)….I floored! The cartouche is on they money!

Jim

 

[geladen]

Jim,
Your pictures tell a different story. The proof and inspection marks on the barrel should be the same depth as on the receiver ring. They aren't. Your receiver was scrubbed massively, then polished and reblued.

It's still a bubbalated parts gun.
John

It does look like that.

The Romanian VZ24 rifles almost all had the receivers scrubbed. A few had 50% - 75% of the crest remaining. Most had about 20%-30% of the crest remaining. Some were scrubbed so well (and reblued) that only by the serial numbers would you know that they originally had crests.

As for parts gun, the barreled action and trigger group look complete with number in a square markings. The stock is mismatched. The trigger guard has letter in a square markings and the floorplate is mismatched.

Regards,
Bill

 

[missrosalita37]

"Yes, FN dated it as pre WWII. However, your front sight, rear sight, receiver, and sear all have number in a square inspection markings."

Bill,
Easily done at ANY TIME in it's life…not necessarily in 1947 or '48. An early FN action/barrel/bolt with post-war contract date stamps is entirely feasible. Can you concede that?

Jim

 

[missrosalita37]

"The Romanian VZ24 rifles almost all had the receivers scrubbed" …Without looking not up…Romania had a contract for 8mm?

Jim

 

[geladen]

Ryan,

YUP! I found that posting too! You nailed the cartouche TOO!!…THANK YOU!

Now, a cutdown looks somewhat possible…and the stock in that post you gave me looks extremely similar with the exception of the rear sling mount (Not the part on the sling itself, but the mount as it attaches to the stock!). I'm curious…do you know what the cartouche stands for? Is it a "depot marking" for weapon repairs? Is it possible this rifle was sent to a depot for repair in the original FN stock?

Damn (If it's OK to say that here!)….I floored! The cartouche is on they money!

Jim

As RyanE said:

The funny looking stamp on the side and wrist of the stock is an Eagle/CL. This is a pre-1927 inspection of the depot at Cassel. "Cassel" became "Kassel" in 1927. You see this stamp on many Gew98s reworked in the 1920s.

That rules out the possibility of an FN carbine being sent for repair in the 1920s.

Regards,
Bill

 

[missrosalita37]

Not an expert on the Imperial stuff, but some Gew98 had finger grooves. Of course, it is also very possible that these grooves were cut when the stock was cutdown.

Some pics of the Cassel marking on Gew98.

RyanE,

Pics of the rifle you are referring to:

 

[geladen]

"The Romanian VZ24 rifles almost all had the receivers scrubbed" …Without looking not up…Romania had a contract for 8mm?

Jim

The point is that some scrubbed crests don't look scrubbed - not that your carbine had anything to do with ZB rifles in Romania.

Regards,
Bill