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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I enlarged this in photoshop and brightened it up so it shows better. At first I thought this might have been some kind of Middle eastern homemade '96 broomhandle mauser hybrid, or even a Bergman hybrid, but it doesn't fit the bill for either of those though it resembles them. The action appears to be rearward and there appears to be a recoil spring rod sticking out the front. There appears to be a lanyard ring on the butt. It appears to be forward magazine fed like a Broomhandle or Bergman. From the features of the faces in the photo, I would imagine this to be middle eastern or Turkish. The original pic is below this photoshop enhanced one. What is this thing? Does anyone know?







See below why I thought it might be some kind of middle eastern, homemade, non exact, hybrid, stocked Broomhandle or Bergman? This is a Bergman model 10/21 below that made me think about that. Not exact of course, but resembles a bit.

 

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Dollars to donuts it's a hand-made "hybrid" gun made in Darra, Pakistan. Looks to have a mag for 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks Vit. You nailed it. I recognized several more of the same type of Broomhandle looking gun in two of the photos you posted. Any idea what it is called, or if it is a production gun or just a local handmade type? That one had me totally stumped. Never saw one like that before. Thanks again for the info.
Just from looking at it, it appears to use a Browning type slide with an extra long barrel. Probably a Browning recoil type system too. But married to a forward Broomhandle type magazine, grip and hammer. A strange marriage of a Browning and a Broomhandle. Interesting. Would love to find out more about that.
Since you clued me to them being from Darra Pakistan Vit, I looked up Darra and found a few more pictures of the same type of pistol. I circled them in the below photos. Intriguing pistol. From what I read about these amazing craftsmen who have been making guns for 100 years there, they can practically make a quality gun with a hammer on an anvil from a beer can and a paper clip. Lol.
 

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Uh, I nailed it first! I expect the prize check to be mailied to me within 5 business days!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Uh, I nailed it first! I expect the prize check to be mailied to me within 5 business days!
By golly you're right jonny c. Sorry I left you out. My mistake. You nailed it first verbally and Vit nailed it first photographicly. You guys share the honor of nailing it equally.
 

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Hey, we can share the honor, but I want the cash!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Neat! I wonder if they could duplicate an MP-40 or MP-44?
After I was clued this hybrid "broomhandle" was made in Darra Pakistan, I did a little reading up on the craftsmen of Darra. Their forte is copying almost any kind of firearm. They are simply amazing craftsmen. They can copy anything and their town has been making firearms in their own primitive but amazing way for over 100 years. They will make a copy right down to the manufacturing numbers and marks. I'm not sure what the U.S. import laws are regarding firearms from Pakistan, but if Pakistani firearm imports are allowed in the U.S., someone is really missing the boat in not having these craftsmen make copies of broomhandles, bergmans, lugers, and any other type of firearm that is either rare or very expensive in the U.S. I remember the Chinese broomhandles that were imported a few years back into the U.S. that were in conditions ranging from excellent to junk. Many butchered with improper rechambering and resleeving from .30 cal to 9mm. The craftsmen of Darra could make consistent copies to whatever specs the buying importer wanted. I'm surprised someone hasn't taken advantage of the very low prices and craftmanship of Darra. You can buy an AK copy there for about $50.00 according to what I've read. Imagine importing new and excellent condition broomhandles, lugers, and other collectible firearms for a fraction of what originals go for.
 

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Watch this video. ITs about the arms markets over there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXrNoqAbSP8
Thank you for that link.

If that guy knew anything about firearms it would have been a much better production.

When he ended the show with his propaganda spiel I thought how interesting it would be to book him a passage to Guantanamo.....you know.....just to be on the safe side. :rolleyes:
 

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Interesting Video, one of the guns I saw in there looked like a copy of a British Lewis Machine Gun.

I wonder how the get the rifling into the barrels?

The guy clearly knows nothing about Lugers, they pre-dated Nazi Germany by almost 40 years.
 

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Durrah Rifling....

The methods used to rifle gun barrels in Durrah, up to a few years ago, matched those of the "Pennsylvania Dutch" and pre-revolutionary Gunmakers in the American colonies...a simple "Hook Cutter" pulling rig, using a "copy" matrix to give the right twist. Slow and time consuming, it still gives excellent rifling. Activated by hand, for the most part, and using up to 30 strokes per groove, that means a lot of work...but time and labour is cheap in the North West Frontier.

Since Electric Power arrived in Durrah, about 20 years ago, they have mechanised somewhat (they use Milling Machines, Lathes with Motors(not young boys turning a large handwheel) and even Powered Rifling machines. Back in the 1960s, everything was done by Hand...drilling, filing, chiselling, etc.
They even use stock new steel now...back then it was recycled Railroad steel and agricultural machine and automotive scrap (for the spring steel).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Doc,
Is this how you rifle a barrel? :D
Vit that above pic you posted is a great pic of a homemade hand powered rifling machine. It is almost identical to the ones used by the pioneers in this country.

And Doc is right on when he wrote:

The methods used to rifle gun barrels in Durrah, up to a few years ago, matched those of the "Pennsylvania Dutch" and pre-revolutionary Gunmakers in the American colonies...a simple "Hook Cutter" pulling rig, using a "copy" matrix to give the right twist. Slow and time consuming, it still gives excellent rifling. Activated by hand, for the most part, and using up to 30 strokes per groove, that means a lot of work...but time and labour is cheap in the North West Frontier.

Since Electric Power arrived in Durrah, about 20 years ago, they have mechanised somewhat (they use Milling Machines, Lathes with Motors(not young boys turning a large handwheel) and even Powered Rifling machines. Back in the 1960s, everything was done by Hand...drilling, filing, chiselling, etc.
They even use stock new steel now...back then it was recycled Railroad steel and agricultural machine and automotive scrap (for the spring steel).

So in the vein of Vic's and Doc's posts on the early rifling techniques used by the middle easterners and the early Pennsylvania Dutch in America, here's some interesting text and pics from the foxfire book #5 series of books of primitive style barrel making you might enjoy. The "Foxfire" books were written in the early 1970's in a school project in the smokey mountains wherein they sought out some of the old timers still living in the mountains and learned how they did things that were taught to them by their fathers and grandfathers. Everything from tanning hides using tree bark ash to making flintlock rifles and more. Sorry the text came out so small but if you try hard, most of you can just barely read it although it might take a magnifying glass to read it better. Worthwhile for those who would take the time to do so. Lots of good info here on some of the hand made tools and methods used by the old timers to rifle barrels.

Below pic shows an American early gunsmith hammer forging and welding a heated barrel around a rod mandrel.



Below pic shows a gunsmith from the 1970's in colonial Williamsburg also hammer forging and welding a heated barrel around a rod mandrel.
As you can see, he starts out with a flat piece of metal and forge heats it and then hammers it around a mandrel rod to form a tube. It is a long
process and he has to heat it up numerous times and then hammer weld the red hot edges together to finish forming the tube.
Then later he drills that tube out to make the barrel tube hole uniform and then rifles it using the copy "corkscrew" rifling jig. That's how they did it in the old days.



In below pic from colonial Williamsburg you see them adjusting the barrel into the hand powered jig and the drill bit end that drills the hole straight after hammer welding
around a mandrel rod and a tool that attaches to the end of the rod used to smooth the barrel previous to rifling. It works on the same principle of an automotive brake
cylinder hone to smooth out the barrel tube hole previous to rifling.



In below pic, look at the drawing of the early gunsmith and his apprentice with their home made, hand powered, "corkscrew" rifling machine. That "corkscrew" is called the "copy" because it copies the pattern of its spiral grooves which is imparted to the barrel as rifling. Compare how similar it and others in the pics below are to the middle eastern home made, hand powered, "corkscrew" rifling machine posted by Vic. Only the middle eastern one posted by Vic appears to be made all of metal whereas the ones used by American old timers were made out of wood. The Foxfire book said it took up to 30 or more pulls to file each rifling groove into the barrel. The "corkscrew" copy piece was whittled out of wood by these old timers. Then it was placed into another wooden piece that engaged the spiral threads of the "corkscrew" copy piece and a rod was attached to it that held a piece of file that was pulled through the barrel to make the rifling grooves.
As the old timers pulled on the "corkscrew" copy piece, it would turn and make the file cut the rifling into the barrel tube. The old timers would use pieces of broken files and adjust how they fit onto the end of the draw rod so that they adjusted them to progressively bite deeper into the metal to make the rifling grooves.
Primitive and ingenious and it worked but just took time. The "corkscrew" copy, is nothing more really than an Archimedes screw and if the ancient Greeks had had gunpowder, they might have used Archimedes screw to rifles their barrels too.



In below pics, notice the difference in the rifling groove styles between the "corkscrew" copy piece being used by the woman on the left compared to Charlie's much tighter rifling twist design. Some people used left hand twist, some used right hand twist. Some used tighter twists, some used less tight twists.




In below pics you can see how Charlie makes the pattern for his "corkscrew" rifling copy piece by rolling across a chalk line. That gives him a mark on the roll that he whittles out in wood.



The bow Charlie used to drill his barrels with. He would press the back of the stationary drill holder against his chest and work the bow to turn the drill.







.
 

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Cannot see the photo; I have a bergman bayard 1910/21 that looks like the top half of a broomhandle. I was trying to see if anyone had access to a Bergman 9mm largo 6-round magazine. Not sure how to post in here yet, but want to ask prople.
 
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