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Why this insistence on Groove Sized bullets for Carcano??? The Original Design Parameters for the 162gn RN FMJ bullet was a Shank of 6,7mm (.2638",) base to the neck crimp cannelure, tapering to 6,5mm ( .2559") at the beginning of the Ogive.
The open base then Upset to fill the Grooves, whatever their diameter ( with the tolerances of the time, ) could be anything from .267" to .271" .
This is what is called " Base Upset Obturation", a principle first enunciated by Minie' ( France) and extended to the Rifled Muzzleloaders of Enfield ( Britain) and Springfield ( USA) by the 1850s.
The method was carried on into Breechloader Days, by Snider ( Enfield )
By the time of the Jacketed Bullet, a new problem arose...increased heat and pressure of Nitrocellulose powder, increased hardness of jacket material, and increased metal fouling of rifling from CuNi or GM jackets.
To alleviate all these problems, Double Based/ Cordite Powders were re- formulated to be "cooler" and less erosive
( Ballistite to Solenite-Italy; Cordite to Cordite MDT in Britain,
etc.) And the Bullet was designed to have a minimum engagement surface area, by only having the Base act as an artillery " driving band", the rest of the bullet barely being engraved by the rifling, hence effective obturation, effective spin generation, reduced pressure and friction, reduced fouling.( also reduced heating of barrel, and reduced felt recoil).
Changing to a Spitzer design, caused several changes...the shank went to Near Groove Diameter ( not enough Inertia in a lighter bullet to allow sufficient Base Upset, so Shank had to be larger)
BUT the Russians took a Belt and Braces approach with their 1908 LP projectile, they gave it a 45°
Divot in the Lead base, to allow Base Upset ( same as 1891 RN bullet). Thus any manufacturing variation in Mosin's rifling depth was allowed for ( .310"-.314").
The British MkVII ( Spitzer) projectile also used B.U.O., as Wartime SMLEs and Previous MLEs Rifling could go out to .314" from the nominal. 311" of the spec.
All Bullet-to-Rifling is a Compromise to get the best result over the longest time.

This note applies to open-base
Lead-core Jacketed bullets ( ie,
FMJ) ; Not Boat-Tails of any type, or Sporting Projectiles ( SP or HP).
Lead bullets are a Totally Different Ball Game....best left alone by Y.T.
Happy New Year all

Doc AV
Down under. ---- Rain, Rain and More Rain...Noah, what were those Measurements again?
 

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The only open base bullet I have found is a boat tail. All the others I have found so far have closed bases. Maybe someday I will try cutting the base part off to expose the lead and see how that works. If the closed base bullets will not expand at these pressures then we are stuck with bad results. Nobody makes the original style Carcano bullet anymore. Too bad too.
 

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The Hornady .264 diameter 160 Soft-Point, Round Nose, closed Flat-Base bullets work very well in both my Moschetto Modello 1891 and 1938's, they are almost as long as the original Italian bullet, it has enough bearing surface to do exactly what DocAv explained above even though it is closed off.

Patrick
 

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I have used Hornady .268 and .264 Interlock bullets in my Carcanos (rifles and carbines) with no discernible difference in accuracy. You may not need the fat bullets, in fact I'm more comfortable with the skinny ones because there's less risk of pressure issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Finally found some flat based 6.5 bullets. Do u think these would work? If not i could use em in my arisaka. I just realized these are only 100 grain. Im going to try to get 120-170
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Flat base OK
FMJ OK
Bearing Surface Not enough
Light Wt. NOT OK!

The light wt. Results in a reduction of Base Upset,
as Inertia is much less than a 162gn bullet.
Also this short bullet will have less resistance to Rifling, be it Progessive ( M91) or Constant ( M38, M41).

I would predict inaccuracy at any range, even with a Factory New Barrel. ( M38 or 41).
Tried once with Norma 93gn FMJ Short Range Training Bullets ...designed for M94/M38 Swedish Mauser...No Bono in Carcano.

Doc AV
 

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Font Material property Parallel Screenshot Brand


They have them is stock ... better buy them before they sell out

Patrick
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Flat base OK
FMJ OK
Bearing Surface Not enough
Light Wt. NOT OK!

The light wt. Results in a reduction of Base Upset,
as Inertia is much less than a 162gn bullet.
Also this short bullet will have less resistance to Rifling, be it Progessive ( M91) or Constant ( M38, M41).

I would predict inaccuracy at any range, even with a Factory New Barrel. ( M38 or 41).
Tried once with Norma 93gn FMJ Short Range Training Bullets ...designed for M94/M38 Swedish Mauser...No Bono in Carcano.

Doc AV
They also have some 156 grain ones. It looks like would have quite a lot of bearing surface. Aw thats too bad they didnt work in ur carcano. I think i might get these 156 grain ones and if they dont work use em for my arisaka
 

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"They have them is stock ... better buy them before they sell out

Patrick "

Just ordered a couple hundred.........just in case this Carcano thing becomes a habit. I already have a supply of original projectiles but this will round it out.........just in case.
 
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Discussion Starter · #32 · (Edited)
So u think these will not tumble out of a carcano? Ik what u mean. I wish i had bought more carcano brass from powder valley. Hopefully north east reloading has .303. Is there any place rn that has either of those? I actually wish i had bought more 50 bmg APIT from 50BMGSupply in ohio. When i talked to em. They said they bought all the remaining ww2 and korean war era pulled armor piercing rounds. But the place burnt up in a fire a few month later taking all the projectiles with em :( actually the reason i called them cuz i ordered 100 AP rounds and they sent me APIs and they sent me 100 black tip rounds for free :) i actually just loaded sum API 30 cals i got from CDVS earlier. Ik thats off topic i just thought it was an interesting story. Actually one time i sumhow glitched their website and products that werent normally available i could buy lol. I tried to order but it didnt work and they dont answer their phone anymore. I still dont know if theyre still in business. The site is up and working.
 

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"So u think these will not tumble out of a carcano?"
I don't know but worst-case scenario my Swedes will like them for sure. Patrick has had success with them as indicated in post #23 on this thread. That is a pretty strong endorsement. We shall see but I suspect being flat based and so long they will work. Except for the couple thousandths in diameter, they look exactly like what I have now.
 
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Moschetto Modello 1938 at 200 meters, target was a steel 24" by 24" with a 12" white circle in the center.
You can hear the hits on target, they are a bit faint but if you listen closely, you will hear them.
This was using .264 diameter Hornady 160 gr. RN / FB bullets behind 32.3 grs. of RamShot TAC, I was chronophing them as I was shooting, Avg. was 2160 FPS.

200 meters Moschetto Modello 1938 with SLB - YouTube
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Moschetto Modello 1938 at 200 meters, target was a steel 24" by 24" with a 12" white circle in the center.
You can hear the hits on target, they are a bit faint but if you listen closely, you will hear them.
This was using .264 diameter Hornady 160 gr. RN / FB bullets behind 32.3 grs. of RamShot TAC, I was chronophing them as I was shooting, Avg. was 2160 FPS.

200 meters Moschetto Modello 1938 with SLB - YouTube
Thats awsome. I just bought 1 pack of 100 for now shipping was only 10$ thats cool u can use them for 6.5 jap or carcano. Maybe i shoulda got more. I do have 100 cast bullets. I heard those particular ones dont shoot well in the carbines tho. Thats what the guy at steinel ammo said.
 

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Moschetto Modello 1938 at 200 meters, target was a steel 24" by 24" with a 12" white circle in the center.
You can hear the hits on target, they are a bit faint but if you listen closely, you will hear them.
This was using .264 diameter Hornady 160 gr. RN / FB bullets behind 32.3 grs. of RamShot TAC, I was chronophing them as I was shooting, Avg. was 2160 FPS.

200 meters Moschetto Modello 1938 with SLB - YouTube
[/QUOTE

Well you do shoot differently than my friends and I . We would say a 2 ft group at 200 yards was total failure . Something was really wrong with the rifle or ammo . You can say it does what YOU want it to do , just like your barn hunting rifle will hit a barn from the inside , But I would not use the word accurate .
 

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Your opinion, I do not care what you think, I have fun shooting they way I do it.

Patrick
 
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Interesting discussions. I have not read anything that would describe the Carcano as being "inherently inaccurate". Bore condition, bullets used, condition of the rifle.... sure, but that applies to anything. But that they just don't shoot, nah. I could be wrong, frequently am. I am anxious to give a couple a spin when the weather gets a bit better. Still tinkering with a couple different loads and bullets but my expectations are that the correct .267 160 grain will be just fine. Also got some Hornady 160's to test out also. So many toys and so little time.
Carcano M 91/38 rifle cal.6,5 x 52 mm shooting test - Bing video
 
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