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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is my C91-all comments/suggestions, distance from Dumpster before pitching welcome.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
After 1 mag became a bolt-action rifle.EXTREMELY accurate. Used 70's era german NATO ammo,very dirty, probably gummed up the flutes. Didn't throw the brass very far, and has recoil like an SKS (or pellet gun).Bolt just stopped cycling after about 10 rounds.I'm going to try it again this weekend.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
How can I tell FOR SURE the bolt isn't ground?-my BG is .010, and I can't find anything stamped on the rollers. There is a bevel on the bolt, and it does't really look any different,machining wise, than any of the rest of it.However, the front(tube part) of the carrier looks like it's contacting the cocking handle when it's forward, in battery.It's also kind of hard to pull it back and charge it.The forearm pin is a little off when I removed it and replaced it.Everything else looks good,I put another stock on it after taking it to the range, and now it slams home like it didn't before (maybe I need to check the gap again, but it looks about the same). It didn't eject very far, and after not cycling the first 3 or 4 rounds of Lithuanian ,I changed the mag to German,ran 10 rounds perfectly.Put in another mag(of german,from the same box), and it was back to bolt action rifle(2-1/2 groups at 100 yds).I figured I had over-lubed it.I took it apart, wiped it out,but no difference.I took it apart again, looked at the chamber flutes(what chamber flutes?) and put some CLP on a 410 brush, ran it in and out the chamber,then ran a boresnake through it. When I tried to put it together,the bolt was together, like it was in battery, and I couldn't get the thing to go back in the reciever, because the rollers were out. I put it back into the case and pulled out another rifle and shot that for the rest of the day.Re-assembled the bolt when I got home. I came over to the roller action crowd after being on the Dark Side(got sick of cookies and wanted something that went where it was pointed),so this is my first one.
Like the pig, I'm commited.
Is the answer "It cycles the action 100 times"?
 

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Some just need to be worn in sit at home and cycle it by hand . A good working G3 will work dirty .
You can measure the bolt to see if it has Benn ground . Do a search for the bolt length .
Mine will throw the brass further than any other gun I have seen . Honest 30' +
 

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CNILE


Your Bolt gap of .010 my not be at all.

If your Carrier Tube hits the Cocking Handle Support, that may be why you have a .010 gap at the bolt/carrier.

Your Carrier Tube should have a Gap of between .005"-.015" between it and the Cocking Handle Support. I prefer .012" to .015" for future wear.

With no Gap-
#1 Eventually your Carrier will rip [crack] the Cocking tube from the force it is exerting when cycling.
#2 The Bolt can be held back from completely locking, which means improper headspace and shell case support.
#3 You might want to look at some of those fired rounds to see of they are showing any rear expansion.
#4 If your chamber Flutes are clogged along with poor Bolt LockUp, You may be looking at an eventual Caboom!
#5 You might hold off shooting it until you have a good and correct idea on how much Bolt Gap you actually have.

gw11
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I re-measured the bolt gap and now it's .009- I could probably call it .0095, but the .010 won't go in now. I put a "new" HK collapsible stock on it, and now it really slams home, sounds different, too. I did't have bolt/cocking handle contact before that. Lots of gunk in the cocking tube, hosed it out with powder blast,still some more in there.I'm going to have to remove the handle and put a 20 gauge brush in there, more than likely. I might get the gap back that way, but I don't know. if I take out the cocking handle, what do I file/grind to to get the gap?-there is a pin on the front (sight) end of the cocking tube, and it looks like that part(the forward plug in the tube) will come out(it's not listed in the armorer's manual). do I grind that?, or the round thing the cocking handle goes on that's contacting the bolt(cocking lever support)?-Ive got a feeling it's going into full lockup now.
I also stuck a soaked bore mop with Hoppes into the chamber, let it sit for an hour, then scrubbed it back and forth with the 410 brush, ran some patches,then ran the boresnake. Now when I sight down the barrel from the reciever end, I see shiny dots all the way around the barrel when looking in,I didn't see this before.
The cases look reloadable,only a couple really had the dent, and all had soot stripes from the flutes, but no deformation. I think it wasn't cleaned,except the bore before I got it.
My boss has a HK 93, and can't even pull the handle on this one.
I told him this one is the real thing, his is the youth model.:D
 

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CNILE

The pin in the cocking tube is not removable and the stop inside is also not removable.
Usually I like to alter the cheapest part. In this case it would be the Cocking Handle Support. But removeing a small amount of material from the end of the carrier Tube is a lot easier. Just [file a little, and Check often!].

Your friends 93 probably has "too" much Gap at the Cocking handle Support. If his Handle lifts easily and then is hard to pull back to release the Bolt.
[of course this is with the same correct .004"-.020" Bolt Gap as yours]
He can place a Dime in between the Cocking Handle support and the Forward end of the Carrier tube. If that helps? Then he needs to add material [weld] to the face of the Carrier tube.
He can also try other Cocking Handle supports for a possible longer length.

He can also have "too" much Bolt Gap and have the harder pull of the Handle.

gw11
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
It worked!!!!!!!!!

IT WORKED!!!:D-still have a little to go, but it's a lot smoother, and doesn't feel like it's binding any more, still tough to charge, though.- I probably don't have nearly enough gap yet, it's probably not even .004,but I see air in there. I took it off the end of the carrier tube, quite a bit, but my gap still reads .009, but I lost that little bit of slack I had before the .010. I must have taken off .020 from the carrier tube, and I'm afraid to take off any more,so I think I'm going to start on the handle support for the rest. I'm going to put a fatter charging handle on it, anyway, a PTR or whatever I can find to keep my parts count.
Anyone know where I can get US floorplates and followers, I have a zillion mags, most in great shape. Will this offset the collapsible stock for parts count?
THANKS TO GW!! for helping me to repair my weapon and KEEP IT AND MYSELF AND OTHERS SAFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D
 

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CNILE

If you have .004 gap at the Cocking Handle Support you will be fine. Just keep that amount in mind as your Bolt Gap decreases the tube gap does also.
All you want to do is stop any damage and ensure that you have full Bolt Lockup.

I am although surprised at you taking .020" off the tube and only losing .001" and gaining .004" at the Support. [ with hard Bolt Release].

The Cocking handle should [with correct Gap] function like this:
- The handle freely lifts just enough to start your fingers under it, and as you lift the handle, the cam [fulcrum] action of the handle forces the Carrier back till it releases or almost completely releases the Bolt. The Handle does 95% of the job.

With no Gap You lose the first part of the freely lifted handle and gain the obvious Carrier Slamming.

With too much Gap you lose part or most of the Handles Cam action. I have seen HK's that had the Handle pulled all the way up with no action at all. That's when a Man shows what he is made of!.

So what I am trying to get to, is Double and triple check your tube Gap. Make sure the Handle is Fully Down and pushed forward against the pin. And the Carrier has been allowed to fly forward to lockup. With some Handles you may be toward the rear with a small gap and when pushed forward you gain way too much Gap.
Too far over .015 will make it harder to release the handle.

Enough trivia

I'll go away now!

Good luck and Have Fun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
More Trivia, Please!

I can use all the trivia I can get my hands on!:) Since I don't want or need a bomb going off next to my head, I have become somewhat obsessed by bolt gap. This ain't an AK or SKS, and tolerances matter.
I apparently have normal rollers. My locking piece is somewhat worn. Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I install a new locking piece, wouldn't that be like installing plus-size rollers, and increase bolt gap? Or would I have to install minus rollers instead?
I took just a little bit more meat off the carrier tube, and now have about .005 or so gap from the handle, and charging action is smooth.
I still have a .009 bolt gap but would like to get it up around .012 or so, maybe a little more. It may seem like a lot of hassle to some of you, but any rifle of this type that I can put 5 rounds into the mouth of a 20 ounce coffee cup at 100 yards offhand, with iron sights (boresighted it before I ever fired it) and cheap milsurp ammo is unreal.
I want another one. Or three.
 

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All of my HK91 and HK33 type builds have had dime and Quarter sized groupings at 80 yards with open sights.
Although it was not that easy for I am an ultimate Picky Person with my guns. Even my Fal Builds performed above the norm.
Everything from perfect Cocking tube alignment to control the Carrier's path and the path of the Bolt as a result.
If your Carrier is not tilting as it enters the Cocking Tube and the Trunion is centered and Level to the Carrier Rails helping the Bolt stay square and Straight as it enters the Trunion, you usually have an above board Target Rifle.
I even bought a couple dozen Trunions just to find a few that were Barrel Bored true within .0005. [most are .003-.009" off center]

I'm not really bragging, just pointing out the fact that if you have an ability to properly adjust your Rifle by reading and understanding logic "as you are" you can easily help make these guns Great!

My largest problem was not being about to see very well past that point.

Good Luck and Have Fun!
gw11
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I found a new locking piece on GB, I'm going to get it and see if I get more bolt gap. mine is kind of worn, so maybe it will help. Can't hurt, anyway. It's "in the white"- do I have to do anything to it before I install it?
If I have to put in plus-size rollers, how do I figure the size to bolt gap increase ratio?? Is this a trial and error thing?
Also, will I have to replace the retaining pin parts for the rollers?
Sorry if these are stupid questions, but maybe others like me will read this and get some benefit from it-Thanks
 

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I found a new locking piece on GB, I'm going to get it and see if I get more bolt gap. mine is kind of worn, so maybe it will help. Can't hurt, anyway. It's "in the white"- do I have to do anything to it before I install it?
If I have to put in plus-size rollers, how do I figure the size to bolt gap increase ratio?? Is this a trial and error thing?
Also, will I have to replace the retaining pin parts for the rollers?
Sorry if these are stupid questions, but maybe others like me will read this and get some benefit from it-Thanks
The gap will depend on the size rollers you have in the size of the ones you put in 0 +2 +4 and the wear in the trunion and the locking piece.
Some see a bigger increase than others.

You dont have to replace the pin but you should have a spare on hand they are tiny Robertg can hook you up with all you need.
http://www.robertrtg.com/g3.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Ordered the stuff from Robert, went ahead and got everything, including the cocking handle support.
got the new locking piece from GB, (the seller also has stripped bolts"new", gave him a description of what I had, if it works I'm getting one added to my order), and ordered everything else to make a new bolt head assembly from Robert.
that means I get to build it, and deal with the extractor spring, so get ready for more dumb questions.:eek:
Like, if it's a G3, WHY DO THEY CALL IT A CETME???????????:confused:
Thanks,Y'all
 

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CNILE

Your gun is not a Cetme. It is a Century International Arms built Gun. It is built on a US made Receiver, stamped C.I.A. and put together with a HK91/G3 Parts Kit. Century's designation is C91.

Century also makes Cetme Rifles on USA made Receivers built with Cetme Parts kits.

While the two guns are similar, they are very different in some parts.
Go here [http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=2029] this thread shows most of the differences.

gw11
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
THANKS!!!-that finally eliminated all doubt.
It's hard to describe to people what you have, and they automatically assume it's the cetme, like I did.
I was going to get the HK bolt/carrier for the plastic ammo, and didn't because Brian at Century tech support said it wouldn't work.So did the seller of the bolt and ammo.Robert at RTG said it would work just fine.
I have also heard that if you remove the rollers from the bolt that it will cycle with the ammo.
I need this stuff because I am changing our duty longarm from the 12 ga. to this thing because of accuracy,collateral damage/penetration, and range issues.The plastic training ammo will allow this,it's perfect for what we need.
If I can get this to work, I don't even need anything else for ammo because that's it's only function and purpose-I don't hunt, and I only go to the range for practice.
Thanks, yall
 

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CNILE

When you talked to Century about plastic bullets and a "HK" Bolt and Carrier, did you lead them to believe your gun was a [Cetme] when they said No?
An HK Bolt and Carrier will not work in a Cetme!

I have never used Plastic ammo but I don't see where it wouldn't work as long as the case supports the load and it doesn't swell up to form to the Chamber flutes. Of course I assume you would be using brass Casings to remedy that.

If you are concerned about the damage to the cases, you can use a case deflector [ welded or clipped on] Robert at RTG may still have them both, or I may have "one" weld on type to sell.

Good luck!


gw11
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
No, I told them I had a C91, the newer one with the black plastic furniture. Apparently some of these were on the CETME pattern receiver.I guess the ones with the flip-around sights maybe, I can't tell from the pictures-they look the same.To be fair,I always get terrific customer service from Century.
I have had AK's in the past that they have given me R.A.'s for without question. As far as standing behind their product, they have always been first-rate.To me, at least.
As far as the plastic stuff goes, it was used by the German army for training, and used a special rollerless bolt, and the carrier looks like it has less mass to it.

It's made to cycle the ammo.
The ammo IS LETHAL, but in my case I need something that won't penetrate auto glass or doors beyond 100 yards or so. I intend to do a lot of testing with it to be sure,I understand this stuff will go through a 2x4 at 25 yards, and accurate out to 300, but my circumstances are unique due to my location, and I don't have enough range with a sidearm, and the 12 ga. isn't accurate enough.
My problem with the AR is it's too complicated,hard to maintain.I like the AK, but they aren't very accurate, and are a NO-NO for a duty longarm.
 
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