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Bob in OHIO
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1119 Posts
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 7:27:43 PM
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Greetings-

As you may have noticed I collect WWII weaponary. As I get deeper into the hobby, the financial commitment continues to grow. While I am pleased to see values going up, it also makes it more difficult to afford adding to the collection. The last nice matching K98 I bought was about 2 yrs ago (ce41 @ 570).

Top price for the common byf44 K98 has gone from $800 two years ago to $1250 today. Brock's even has a byf44 priced at >1400! Where will prices be in another 2, 5, or 10 years?

Future factors WILL change the dynamics of collecting the objects we hold so dear. Today, some guys are getting out of the hobby due to fakery and fraud or simply due to boredom. Other guys are cashing in there chips now for whatever reason.

Here are some things to consider...

1) Current collectors typically are middle age. Fewer youth feel the passion for milsurps. Our children are another generation removed from WWII and have other interests--video games, etc!!....(So: Future demand my actually drop).

2) Many many high quality guns are in private collections. Those guns will become available when estates are settled or due to divorce. The next generation may just not want Dad's collection (see #1 above...so, the supply of high quality stuff may actually increase).

3) Political climate may also change (so... our collections may actually loose value if there are radical changes in the political environment).

4) The internet has expanded our information gathering possibilities and auctions currently seem to inflate average price...(Is this sustainable?) Perhaps the internet and gun sales have not peaked and will become the norm. It certainly allows everyone to participate from home without traveling to major auction houses...

5) Books...I know of at least two major books that are being worked on. Good information promotes interest and demand and those books will, IMHO, greatly promote the value of those weapons!

Conclusion: Continued increase in valuation requires that demand outpace supply. In 20-25 years, when our children are our age, perhaps collecting will actually be more affordable (relatively speaking).

Lets share ideas on where the collecting environment might be in 2-10 yrs for Third Reich Weaponary....

ps: I couldn't help myself and have just added two matching G.43s as K98s seem so tough to locate... "I still believe it's better than money in the bank"

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My CD full of K98 pics... http://bobinohio.com/

[email protected]

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Edited by - Bob in OHIO on 11/20/2004 7:29:07 PM

Bill In Indiana
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1661 Posts
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 8:49:07 PM
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"I still believe it's better than money in the bank"

You have that right...good quality mint condition pieces will always increase in value short of some sort of wide spread economic crisis....like a depression...or maybe a few more years of $$$$8 Trillion deficits might also be a problem...but with bank interest rates and stock market investments bieng pretty much a bust, rare "stuff" is a good bet for us little guys. The Bill Gates types will not be concerned, nor will it be worth their while.

I remember people laughing at a friend of mine for purchasing what was then thought to be a way too expensive 98k at a show. Every so called expert saw it and scoffed at the price. But everybody admitted it was 100% mint and could never be improved. He asked me for advice and I told him if you intend to keep it a few years, then buy it. You won't go wrong. Just a little over 2 years later those same folks who scoffed were paying much more for lesser quality rifles. Of course several factors made the difference. New books about Mausers, new movies showing the rifles being used, and a vivid economy started prices and demand climbing.

As for books, I have always found that when good in depth reference books surface, prices of items found in those books begin to climb. You and I may know an item is rare, but when a book says it, people believe it more than they do you or I. So they start paying the premium for those rare items.

The dying off collectors factor while I think it does have some impact, I think it will not be a violent impact as demand far out measures supply for rare investment quality stuff. I think the only way it would have a serious impact would be if everybody sold off at the same time...but the nature of collecting usually means some of us will hang on to the end, some will cash out sooner, some a little later. So I think the dispersing of collections will be obsorbed by the hobby pretty well.

My biggest concern would be the economy. If things get no worse, or at least stay about the same prices will climb. But if suddenly buyers can not afford to indulge hobbies...look out!
-Bill In Indiana


kriggevaer
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1709 Posts
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 9:39:57 PM
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Very good posts - a lot to consider. I tend to follow Bill's ideas. If the economy stays relatively healthy, prices will rise. The prices on the auctions do seem much higher than one would expect, but they do reflect whatever the market will bear. Personally, I'm finding some pretty incredible buys through estate sales and household auctions.

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kriggevær

"Roland was a warrior from the Land of the Midnight Sun..."



Snipershot1944
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
226 Posts
Posted - 11/20/2004 : 9:46:51 PM
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Take a look at Civil War and Rev War weapons to see where the prices will someday go. They were cheap in the 20's and 30's, but today you have to be rich or a museum to build a type collection.

I turned 48 this week, and plan to begin liquidating the collection in about 17 years, to keep me busy when I retire. It should take 2-3 years to complete. You guys are willing to wait till then, right?

Sniper


Fightin Scot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
4002 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 12:02:35 AM
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You don't have to worry about youth not caring about milsurps. I have another 50 or so years of collecting left. I started in on the milsurps when I was 16, 4 years later I have began to buy more frequently and will ONLY buy milsurps (Except the Glock I am looking at for my 21st birthday). The only gun collectors who will continue on and buy milsurps are those extrememly interested in history or those who have the "gotta have one of everything" mentality. I just love picking up a milsurp and imagining what it has done, where it has been, who carried it in whatever war, how many people's lives were ended by it.

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sandmountainslim
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
367 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 1:23:58 PM
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The way I have always looked at it is they will be like War Between the States relics someday maybe in my grandkids time, dunno if I am considered "middle aged" or not though SMS is 34 years of age.
SMS

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MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 2:13:47 PM
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With the plethora of "original" parts now available in the form of RC K98s, bonafide originals will continue to gain in value. In ten more years it will be even more difficult to obtain a real original WWII relic.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

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Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 5:42:13 PM
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One of the more interesting posts I've seen for awhile.I teach school;the average student(K-12) knows very little about WW1/WW2.They could care less.Likewise ,schools are not teaching history as they used to.History takes a back seat to ALL other subjects,including sports.This may not be the case everwhere,but it is the case ,far too often.My sense is,there just is not a lot of "potential" Third Reich collectors coming to age.Then too,bolt guns,machined steel,wood stocks, low capacity mags and open sights are viewed as "stone age" by the few ,young,military enthusiast I meet.They want plastic,high cap mags and rapid fire."History", to them, is "Pac-Man".So...everyone here has made excellent points,and I may be wrong,but I'm just not sure the market will be there ten years from now.I am frequently wrong however.I will offer this;it doesn't matter.Collectors of history are addicts;we can't help ourselves.We are going to collect what we want to collect,and to hell with how much our widows make after we no longer cast a shadow.That's the only way to collect anything.


zampilot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3991 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 7:01:16 PM
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byf44's are the most common K98k, by the production numbers. How many complete/matching/originals are out there and how many were destroyed for whatever reason? They may be common, but not in matching condition. Same as any K98k. What you got is $$.

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I'd like a Riihimaki M/28-30, just to round things out!
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mowzerluvr
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1612 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 9:22:37 PM
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As with anything. When a hobby is combined with investing. The price will always keep stedily increasing. I used to collect, restore and drive old Mopars. Still have one. Have had more than 15 of them. But try to buy one today. I bought my first car a 69' Hemi RoadRunner in 1980 for $1,400. Today the same car is over $40,000. Because it is worth it?? Hell no. Its investors who buy to sell a few years later for a large profit. The same will happen with the K98 and other milsurps in my estimation. Not at as large a scale but the same principal anyway. I have 7 K98's. None totally dead on matching. But 3 are only mismatched by either a bolt or a screw or two. I have only been in it over a year and a half and see the prices going up like a thermometer in august. Russian captures alone used to be around $150. Now look at them. Deals can be found. But it takes the love and interest to find them. Don't expect to find them in a gun shop as most of them now are getting price savvy. Allot of the good stuff is in private collections. But allot is not. And awaits discovery. I think the price of these things are going to go allot higher sooner than later. I am getting while the getting is good. What I buy, I shoot. I will not buy a weapon to just hang on display. Nothing wrong with that if that floats your boat. BUt to me they are made to shoot and 60 years old is no excuse for me. My buck is on allot higher prices by 2 years from now.
mow.


boltactionsforever
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1719 Posts
Posted - 11/21/2004 : 10:54:34 PM
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Interesting highly sought after weapons will continue to go up on a faster scale then anyone is going to imagine....Personally I value "most" of the highly collectable WWI/WWII firearms with ATLEAST 10%-15% yearly if in original drab...

I personally think the days of seeing CORRECT numbers matching k98's under $1,000 are going away pretty quickly!....I think within 2 years this will be absolutlely true...With as many Russian Capture k98's hitting the shores lately, some of these "entry" level collectors will look at "stepping up"...this will drive the originals way up in a hurry---Mark my word!--It's already happening.....Even mismatched non-import k98's will easily begin to hit the $800.00 mark on a regular basis in the next year or so......Dont overlook these collectors, you will be sorry!

there are some guns that are flat increadable to follow...
the SVT40's/G43's/Johnson's(WOW)/.....these are close to 30%-40% yearly.....remember the $200-$300 svt40's only a couple of years ago??--Long GONE now!

Any original full automatics...geeeeeesh..sky's the limit!..Some Kentucky reports from this fall where of 200-300% increases for full auto's in one year!


Folks there's one thing for sure---the need is increasing/and the supply is all but flat gone for original configuration k98 guns----this is when you will see your biggest returns....and where currently "living it",Enjoy and dont let a bargan pass you by.....

FYI



BAF

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"the only way to fix that poor gun my lad"....

"Is to find the time machine that is set to one day before Vic' got his hands on it"


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 01:05:20 AM
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Very good comments all. In the last 20 years I've seen Kar.98k's increase in price dramatically for nice, matching examples. It's a steady creep up, punctuated by dramatic spikes as a result of economic upturns. These upturns cause us to spend more on high end "toys" because we have more. High end collectable firearm demand and prices drop during bad times. But the ratchet is one way if you graph it out over more than 5 years. Demand slows, but prices never drop much.

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mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 08:08:50 AM
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I do WW2 reenacting- I saw someone say there is not interest in WW2, and nothing to drive interest in the younger crowd. I have to disagree to a point. Our reenactment unit is growing by leaps and bounds, and interest in WW2 is coming from all things video games! With all the WW2 based games out there, these internet saavy guys are latching on to the weapons used in the games- I mean how long can you target shoot with your computerized 98k? Plus, as was mentioned, the Russian Capture guns open a whole world for a new collector- hell, I can't even stop buying them, and I don't even like them that much......

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com


Chuckd
Gunboards Super Premium Member



418 Posts
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 08:18:55 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Bob in OHIO
1) Current collectors typically are middle age. Fewer youth feel the passion for milsurps. Our children are another generation removed from WWII and have other interests--video games, etc!!....(So: Future demand my actually drop).

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Hey, I'm only 24 and I own 3 G43's, 7 K98k's, and 1 G41... so don't lose all hope for the future generation just yet. There's still quite a few of us out there that enjoy history and WWII.

You're forgetting an important aspect of the video game pop culture and how it influences youth. Games like Medal of Honor and Hidden and Dangerous are really the sparks that started my milsurp fire. Movies and TV series like SPR, and Band of Brothers don't hurt either. Man has always, always had a facination with war (and its relics)... my generation is no different.

p.s. Saw your G43's on the G/K forums, Bob. Nice rifles!!

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http://www.gunsofthereich.com

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Edited by - Chuckd on 11/23/2004 08:20:29 AM


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 08:50:40 AM
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Mrfarb, Chuck, no question. After a hard day there is nothing like whaling away on MOH . Cool thing about it is "using" alot of the stuff we own. The reverse is certainly true, that is, wanting an original of what is used on MOH. This has without a doubt spurred great interest. I think our hobby is quite safe from fading away. Interest with young people today, for the reasons given by Chuckd, is much greater than when I was "young" in the 1980's. I slapped myself when byf 44's were selling for $600, then again at $750, then at $1000, then........I better quit before I hurt myself.

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Arms1
Gunboards Premium Member



174 Posts
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 2:38:02 PM
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The Russian captured have diluted the prices somewhat, but nonimport and all matching guns will always go higher, simply because the supply is finite.


Winchester Cowboy
Gunboards Super Premium Member



Canada
282 Posts
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 9:30:38 PM
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You never pay too much, you just buy too early.

They don't make them anymore.

I think it's wishful thinking to see prices drop to a more affordable level.

With all the new war movies, internet, gun books, information is instantly available and better than it was 20 years ago - compared to a Shotgun News Paper and a Guns and Ammo Magazine. Demand is greater than the supply. Every year there is more gun collectors.

Yes, prices will continue to go North.

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The Verdict was always Guilty, when tried by Judge Colt and his Jury of Six.

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Edited by - Winchester Cowboy on 11/25/2004 9:33:40 PM


DaSwede
Gunboards Super Premium Member



475 Posts
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 10:31:00 PM
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will k98 prices always increase? probably not. will they increase over time? yes, but it has been my experience that the values of collectible guns go in cycles. (remember winchester model 12 prices in the 1980's and early 90's--minty guns started at $700 and went up from there. now the market on model 12's is in a slump and minty ones can be had for $500) the value of most guns has to do with economic and legal issues as well as collector interest. demand is high and the supply of good quality k98s is limited. i think the likelyhood of a large supply of matching original k98's hitting the market is low(but not completely impossible). a large supply of messed with k98's that appear to be matching and collectible would be much more likely and could adversely effect the market if they were very well done. i think k98's are a great hobby and a good investment, but i don't think any one type of gun is a sure thing to increase in value.
rick


Max2Cam
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 11/26/2004 : 11:03:38 AM
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Has anyone yet mentioned the ("evil") mystique of Nazi artifacts which seems to boost collector prices?

In the case of K98s, Lugers, etc. I think this factor will affect future prices compared to other Mauser rifles if the fascination in Third Reich material continues.


gew88guy
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
6193 Posts
Posted - 11/26/2004 : 1:41:22 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Max2Cam

Has anyone yet mentioned the ("evil") mystique of Nazi artifacts which seems to boost collector prices?

In the case of K98s, Lugers, etc. I think this factor will affect future prices compared to other Mauser rifles if the fascination in Third Reich material continues.

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Add to that mystique the popularity of movies such as "Saving Private Ryan", "Enemy at the Gates". video games such as "Medal of Honor", "Panzer Front" and the History Channel's monthly nothing-but-Nazi week of programming and the popularity of 98ks seems destined to remain strong.

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~ An honest tale speeds best,
being plainly told. ~

Who is this man and why is he trying to save my country?

liberalism is a mental disorder

Imperial German Regimental Markings

Das Heereswaffenampt




zampilot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3991 Posts
Posted - 11/26/2004 : 7:28:25 PM
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Fascination with the Third Reich boosting K98k prices?
I think it's more likely to be the casual collector who wants one or two representative rifles from each of the major combatants in WW2.
As far as "Nazi Collectors" (those who collect nazi stuff): have you ever priced any real nazi stuff? One real Iron Cross may buy two or three matching K98k's. A real SS Regimental Standard (the decoration atop a battle-streamer pole) can buy as many as you want.

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I'd like a Riihimaki M/28-30, just to round things out!
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket1.html


drdave
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
325 Posts
Posted - 11/27/2004 : 01:30:43 AM
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Prices will NEVER go down.
There were only so many WW2 weapons made. Every year a few more are lost to broken parts, rust, widows who have no interest in them and sell them for next to nothing in "police firearms buybacks" etc. So the supply keeps going down, but as people realize how valuable these things are, they take better care of them thereby slowing but certainly not halting the decease in supply.
Demand will not decrease or at least not by much. These are the only real military history we common folks are allowed to touch--we can't buy howitzers, and even 50 years after the M-16 is retired from inventory as obsolete, it will still be unavailable because it has select-fire capability.
Even if everything stayed equal, prices for all items inevitably increases. My first new car years ago cost less than many used cars of the same class cost today.
Think of this: right after WW2, the government was letting aircraft rot in the jungles or shoving them off the sides of ships because there were so many that it wasn't worth the expense of bringing them back to the US. A P-51 could be purchased for $500 (a relatively high price then, probably several month's pay, but still a bargain for an airplane). Today there are so few of these relics left due to scrapping, rust, and crashes that only billionaires can afford them, and even they usually have to transfer the ownership to a museum or historical organization for tax purposes.


Max2Cam
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 11/27/2004 : 11:19:14 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by zampilot

Fascination with the Third Reich boosting K98k prices?
I think it's more likely to be the casual collector who wants one or two representative rifles from each of the major combatants in WW2.
As far as "Nazi Collectors" (those who collect nazi stuff): have you ever priced any real nazi stuff? One real Iron Cross may buy two or three matching K98k's. A real SS Regimental Standard (the decoration atop a battle-streamer pole) can buy as many as you want.

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It is always part of a supply and demand formula. By K98 standards of production, there were NOT many SS regimental standards made. And a lot more guys were issued rifles than got the Iron Cross.

Other areas of Mauser collecting don't share the dubious distinction of having Nazi markings and the enhanced value those markings bring related to the historical "aura" of a WWII "Nazi" battle rifle. It doesn't seem that Russian or Brit or U.S. guns have such a mystique premium built into them and I believe that will continue to influence "Nazi" gun values into the future.

Personally I don't care. I like them because they are German guns.


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 11/27/2004 : 7:30:25 PM
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Just to revisit this interesting conversation;don't kid yourself that prices don't drop for "collectables".Baseball cards,Beanie Babies,Avon bottles,cut glass,oak furniture,stamps,silver/gold coins,Mosin Nagant rifles,SKS's,Swiss K-31's,art by such-and-such,and yes,even Nazi items.Large Nazi flag prices have dropped as has a lot of Nazi "stuff",due to the perfect fakes out there in the market;not good fakes....PERFECT fakes.Most of you remember the $300-$400 08 Lugers that were available about four years ago.Luger collectors had their heart in their throat.The influx of RC's has already led to an entire underground industry cranking out "new" G.I.,all matching, bring-backs.This criminal act will impact our hobby in a negative way,just like fake Knight's Crosses etc shot the hell out of Nazi collecting.I'm not trying to rain on the love fest,but the only reason to collect anything is because it turns you on.I sincerely hope I'm wrong.As a rule,I do agree that nice "antique" weapons should hold their value,and probably grow in value...but there are a lot of exceptions to the rule.The baby boomers,whoes fathers fought WW2,are 56 + years old.They are responsible for the current interest in WW2 weapons and history.I just don't see another generation coming along that revere that period as most of us do.Collect because you like to,and you will always have a sure thing.


gew88guy
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
6193 Posts
Posted - 11/27/2004 : 9:22:12 PM
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Paul Parrish wrote:"The baby boomers,whoes fathers fought WW2,are 56 + years old.They are responsible for the current interest in WW2 weapons and history.I just don't see another generation coming along that revere that period as most of us do.Collect because you like to,and you will always have a sure thing."

Paul, how do you account for the continuing strong interest in the Gew98s, Kar98as, broomhandle Mausers, pickelhaubes despite the fact that most of us here probably haven't had any contact with a WW1 vet for two and a half decades ?

I think you have to put WW1 & WW2 German items in the same ultra-collectible category as those with lineage connecting them to the Confederacy and the American Revolution.

I'm not saying that folks' memories don't play a role in their collecting habits but it's not the only factor in an item's desirability.

Among old Ford guys it's usually accepted that a nice 1920s T-Model will go for less than a similiar Model A because the A is a lot more familiar to living collectors.....but if the Model T is a pre-1909 "brass" T it will fetch a higher price because it's tied to a certain, well-defined area of car collecting, i.e. the Brass Era.

I put WW1 and WW2 German stuff in the same blue chip category as 1932 Fords and 1957 Chevies.

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~ An honest tale speeds best,
being plainly told. ~

Who is this man and why is he trying to save my country?

liberalism is a mental disorder

Imperial German Regimental Markings

Das Heereswaffenampt




Bill In Indiana
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1661 Posts
Posted - 11/27/2004 : 9:37:11 PM
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Paul...I am going to disagree with you a bit. But maybe we are talking two different things. I am refering to investment grade things...not just representative examples. Representative items will see more hills and valleys in thier values. But great stuff will not see the same dips in the road in my opinion.

Comparing nazi 98k's to beanie babies is a bit apples and oranges. True some collectables lose value, but the stuff falling into this catagory are those items that have little cost to begin with...or are fads... like Beanies and avon to name a few. They were MADE to be collectible, and thus will not be worth squat in the long run because everybody saves it. When people realized that they were paying $100 for an avon bottle made by the millions and being sold for 99 cents, the bottom fell out of the market. Same for Beanies. (NASCAR stuff will be next...mark my words)

Fads are a different things altogether. Fads generally last 3 - 8 years. (Remember the guys breading Ostriches?) They were flashes in the pan so to speak just like beanies, & cabbage patch dolls. But nazi stuff has been a going concern since the 40's. It is an established market.

Yes baseball cards are down, but not the high end cards, just the mass produced more common ones are down. The real serious stuff is still beyond most average collector's bank roll...and a good investment.

While fakes are a problem, most fakery is "done" to lower end buyers who are just getting into a hobby. Experienced collectors making serious investments educate themselves and thus are not as easily fooled. I know there are exceptions to this of course, we have all seen folks with too much money paying idiot prices for bogus stuff. But for the most part, payers of big bucks know what they are doing....or soon learn the hard way.

Perfect fakes are in my world impossible to tell from original by even experts. While there are fakes that are better than others, and Perfect fakes I am sure exist, for the most part perfect fakes have never been detected. If it can be determnmined to be a fake, then in my book it is not perfect.

I think fakery is an ongoing problem, not a new problem to nazi stuff. Ever see the Hitler Youth Knives made in the 40's? Post war 40's that is. Fakery is not knew.

Russian capture stuff is another angle. Sure those lugers sold for $3-400...but you may have noticed, they are all gone for the most part, and luger prices are still up.

Another aspect that you did not mention, but I will is the internet. With this wonderful tool, many people have discovered that an item that was thought of as rare 5 years ago, is not as rare as once thought. Large nazi flags I think fall into this catagory maybe.

But on the other side of that coin, some items that were once thought common, have gone up drastically due to the internet, and the information available there. I think the internet is a double edged sword in some respects.

The generational thing is also a concern. And while I see what you are getting at, I do not see a slacking off in the next generation. I see a lot of interest in my area. I think it will be at least a few more generations before that becomes a concern. And then it will maybe...maybe be a concern. Take a look at civil war era stuff....it's still hard to touch today for the good stuff.

Of course if GW Bush decides to strap on a "pair" and signs an executive order that allows GI's to bring home AK's and Dragunovs as souveniers, then this could slow interest in 98ks for a while....but I just don't see GW getting measured for a set, so I don't see that as a problem....and I think that at best it would just be a bump in the road, not a permanent downturn.

I guess what I am saying is that while I think there will be some minor fluctuations from time to time, in the long run the direction things are going is up. That is unless (like I mentioned in my earlier contribution to this subject)...some serious economic downturn hits the fan. Then look out. All bets are off. -Bill In Indiana



Max2Cam
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 11/28/2004 : 10:47:44 AM
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While it is true that the faked or enhanced relic industry should send shudders through any serious collector (I am not one), I don't think you can compare the world interest in the historical Nazi era to Beenie Babies or Avon bottles. There is the possibility that as it recedes in time and the stigma of evil decreases as it naturally will, collector interest may even increase in the Third Reich.

Something else to consider with Nazi "crap" is that for better or worse, Hitler did win the war of aesthetics and some of the stuff is as much art as artifact. Watch out if that ever catches on. That also spills over into old German stuff in general. You can't find a better looking or better handling pistol than a Luger or a more exquisite object of craftsmanship than a minty Argentine contract Mauser.

A similar situation exists with 1930s Harley Knuckleheads and the early bikes. They are in a class of their own. Not hyped "instant" collectables but the real thing. As a result they have become a rich man's hobby.

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Edited by - Max2Cam on 11/28/2004 10:50:42 AM


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 11/28/2004 : 12:10:57 PM
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The last three posters made their points very well.Good points.So good I'll back off my position,somewhat. Let me say this another way.Collectables do rise and fall as to interest and therefore value.The 45-60 year old generation has a real tie to WW1/WW2,especially WW2 since our fathers/uncles fought that war.The WW1 connection is there because our grandfathers/uncles fought that war.Infact,my wife is only 50,but her dad was 56 when she was born,and he was a Marine in The First World War.We have his uniform etc.,which drives the interest.A lot of families are like mine,in one way or the other.Also,for those of you my age ,or close,you remember watching Combat,Gallant Men,and "war movies" in general.These shows were quite popular!The interest was there!Additionally,history was actually TAUGHT when we were in school,and consequently, we learned to respect
those great people that made it all happen.These factors made a big difference! As I said earlier,I teach.Most of you already know that history is not high on the list of subjects in many public schools.It's taught,certainly;but it is a dumbed down version that is overly P.C.and decidedly "non-military".There are wonderful exceptions;I'm talking in general.These young students,when they reach their 30's,are not likely to have the same interest in "old fashion" guns as my generation .Look what appeals to the younger crowd now...plastic stocks,rapid fire,hi- cap,scopes,scopes,scopes,more plastic,and race-gun design.Will they ever pick up a 98k and be able to appreciate what they're holding ?Max2,Bill in Indiana,and Gew98guy...your argument and reasoning made me rethink my position.I hope I am being narrow minded,and seeing only what I wish to.Not just for the sake of "collecting",but for a much more important reason,that of respect for our history.I may be wrong,and that's fine with me.Thanks.


Cork
Gunboards Member



USA
85 Posts
Posted - 11/28/2004 : 7:09:48 PM
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Very intersting reading. Being a older but a 'new' collector I have also wondered what the future will hold for pre 1945 milsurp's. I agree with the theme that true collector grade rifles will continue to increase in value regardless of demographic shifts. The net has openned up a huge population for trading and the price increases on rifles in demand should stay high. I tend to feel their will be gradual price increase in refurbished and shooter grade. Simple economy still exists, some level of a market should continue for shooters and lower cost collectors since new rifle prices are so high. Ammo prices would also be a factor. Will C&R rifles in 50 years will be made of plastic? Or does the total C&R population for 100 years from now exist? For now I rationalize spending this way. You can get a pretty nice milsurp for the price of attending one professional football game with your son/daugther or spouse.
Ted


Bill In Indiana
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1661 Posts
Posted - 11/28/2004 : 7:35:59 PM
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Paul, I understand where you are coming from. The fear that history is being side stepped by the powers that be. But in recent years at least in my area, I have seen an increase in local schools putting on programs around veterans day, and having vets come and speak. That was certainly more than I saw in grade school. So maybe it is just a swing of the pendulum sort of thing, and we will see a better understanding of history being taught in the future.
-Bill In Indiana


dawgbait
Gunboards Member



USA
57 Posts
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 03:22:57 AM
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I will be collecting Milsurp for the rest of my life. I have been looking at WW2 rifles more than new rifles. I like the feel of the older rifles. I really love my Mauser K98. Even though its not all matching, it still looks beautiful. I am working my way to get a 100% matching rifle.

Ross



Max2Cam
Gunboards Premium Member



113 Posts
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 10:30:53 AM
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I agree with Paul that history is not a prime interest for most Americans. In fact quite the opposite. Americans are largely concerned with hyped new product and like lemmings with regard to Hollywood mass culture and branding. Look at pro-sports or NASCAR as examples. Collectors with a strong interest in history are a distinct minority. Sometimes I feel like I belong in the 19th century, although I'd like to bring a few solar panels along.

None of us can state with certainty what the future holds with regard to Third Reich collector value, but my feeling is that Nazi artifacts (including guns) will have a similar future as Confederate artifacts have experienced. Not because there is any direct cultural tie in this case, but that there is always a fascination with a large and colorful lost cause, esp. one that ends in a quasi-mythic Goetterdaemmerung. Throw in the "bad boy" cultural world-view philosophy of Herr Hitler and it should have lasting power unless those "perfect" fakes bring it down.

Personally, I am already priced out of the minty K98 and Luger marketplace, and make do with the dregs and few objects my dad brought back from the war. In fact I got one of those last batch AIM Lugers from 4 years ago. It will never have high collector value with its mismatched sideplate and incorrect Gothic "S" 1934 toggle plus nasty import marks and at $400 it felt overpriced to me, but it is still a "gen-u-whine" German Luger and that's what counts!
 
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