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BP_redbear
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
171 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 4:28:10 PM
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Newbie Question...Haven't found it in FAQs, didn't search WAY BACK, either...

Understanding that the Germans were (and are) very meticulous about manufacturing excellence…

1. WHY were most parts for the K98k rifles (more so in the beginning of manufacture), stamped with the serial number of the rifle anyway???

In comparison, weren’t parts of M1 Garand rifles stamped with the drawing number of the part, not the serial number of the rifle receiver?

2. Was there SO MUCH hand fitting still being done in 1934 and on, that it was necessary to keep original parts with a particular rifle???
3. Does this mean that there was a lack of parts interchangeability between rifles???
4. If above are true, then, is this why Russian captured and re-arsenalled rifles were re-numbered when new parts were installed?
And, would this mean that the Russians actually fit parts and checked them before re-numbering them?

Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 4:56:34 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by BP_redbear

Newbie Question...Haven't found it in FAQs, didn't search WAY BACK, either...

Understanding that the Germans were (and are) very meticulous about manufacturing excellence…

1. WHY were most parts for the K98k rifles (more so in the beginning of manufacture), stamped with the serial number of the rifle anyway???

In comparison, weren’t parts of M1 Garand rifles stamped with the drawing number of the part, not the serial number of the rifle receiver?
See your question 3 and 4. There were but TWO manufacturers of the M1, and while many for the M1 carbine, both weapons were designed (1930s, 1941 respectively) for parts interchangeability. The Gew.98 (designed in 1898), that was not so much a consideration, particularly with as many different manufacturers.

2. Was there SO MUCH hand fitting still being done in 1934 and on, that it was necessary to keep original parts with a particular rifle???

Yes!!! Otherwise, they would not have done it. Tolerances loosened dramatically late 1944 and if you notice, the unnumbered parts are DIE STAMPED SHEET STEEL (same die, close tolerances for each part, not as much if any individual machining and finishing). There's a reason for the old adage "stamping them out" to indicate many identical things. That's what die stamping does. That's NOT what hand machining does.

3. Does this mean that there was a lack of parts interchangeability between rifles???

Yes!!! Get five Kar.98ks, matching, and start (trying) swapping floorplates, firing pins, safeties, etc.

4. If above are true, then, is this why Russian captured and re-arsenalled rifles were re-numbered when new parts were installed?
And, would this mean that the Russians actually fit parts and checked them before re-numbering them?

The very reason the Russians did this proved that it needed to be done. The Germans didn't do this to be anal. As anal as they were, they were even more efficient. They didn't number parts for kicks and giggles. It was necessary. The Czech Vz.24s don't have profusely numbered parts because there was only ONE factory making them, Brno. The Germans had 8-9 plants. As for the Russians, they Russians stripped all those mountains of K98ks, put all the parts in a cement mixer type cleaner with sand and diesel to knock off the dirt, rust, goop, and clean them, re-dip blued all the parts, then had workers assembling them. The parts that fit were electropencilled on the spot. That's alot cheaper and easier than trying to die stamp. There were lots of Russkie "armorers" (i.e. assemblers) slapping parts that worked together and etching them so they stayed together.

They didn't refurb individual rifles, these were complete mixmasters from rehashed parts subsequently slapped together. These rifles probably came from piles, maybe left outside, stacked up, buried, thrown in warehouses, etc. It would have been overly time consuming to grab individual rifles, figure out what needed replacing, find the proper part, and repair it. They had big piles of barrelled receivers, big piles of bolts, stocks, etc., all cleaned and reblued, then reassembled for the Viet Cong, third world Commie guerillas, etc. Note that the Soviets didn't renumber those parts with electro pencils just for the helluvit as the parts were interchangeable. They did this because they found that they had to, for the same reasons the Germans numbered them in the first place. More likely than not parts will interchange. However, NOT numbering them, even with only 25% parts NOT interchanging, would be a LOGISTICAL NIGHTMARE with troops in the field. I discovered this cleaning about 10 Katrina 98s for a buddy. All the parts were stripped and soaked in diesel. Many did not fit and the numbers made it a breeze to get everything back right. That's how units and unit armorers cleaned and repaired weapons.
Cheers,
HB

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Edited by - Hambone on 09/04/2006 6:25:49 PM


johnny_mustang
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
748 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 8:05:59 PM
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To go along with what Hambone said, I bought a bolt on ebay that would not work when on safe on one rifle. Pull the trigger with the safety on and it released the firing pin.

Stuck it in another K98 and it worked fine.

Had one safety that was loose, worked fine but bounced around. Annoying to me. Picked up another safety and replaced that one and now have a nice snug fit. So parts are close, but don't always work as you'd expect.


solman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1615 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 10:10:32 PM
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ill agree with bone. im a shooter, and started collecting mausers after a lone haitus. i started with rc's, and found all kinds of small problems like john_m. i ended up with a couple franken mauser non rc's cause they are smoother and fit together better. ive not done near as many as some but ive been thru a bakers dozen in the last year at leist. tried waffen matching ect... i just went to vet bring back mixmasters/sporters for shooting cause of all the problems with dragging bolts,tight/loose bands, and semikriegs stocks on prewars, whatever. you can get a rc to MOA. but a cheap bubba sporter or a mixmaster that has not been put away wet is easer and really not a collector. IMO as a shooter the 98 in any form is a fine tuned machine and will preform as well as anything out there. that is why matching mausers command what seems to be inflated prices.

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Trompe la mort


Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 10:24:14 PM
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You'll find fit to be questionable on a miriad of items. The most frustrating to me is the upper barrel band. These are a bear to get off when they fit tight. Lower barrel bands may shave wood if fitted wrong. Barrel band springs could be too long. As mentioned by Johnny, bolt parts can function incorrectly. I have had to change safety levers because I could not (or only with force) rotate the safety to safe. I have also had bolt cocking pieces that would not allow the firing pin to cam. Floor plates can be difficult fit. Trigger guards may not seat in the wood correctly...you can go on...

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I have nothing, whether informative, witty, or entertaining to add to my signature…


TrentM
Gunboards Member



USA
43 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 10:28:38 PM
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Can someone explain the comment about there being only two manufacturers of M1 Garands? I thought several companies built them during the war. Sorry for asking a Garand question, but someone else brought it up first.

By the way, I shot my RC Mauser for the first time last Friday. If all matching rifles function any better than it, I had better start saving up for one now.

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Edited by - TrentM on 09/04/2006 10:35:44 PM


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 10:43:52 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by TrentM

Can someone explain the comment about there being only two manufacturers of M1 Garands? I thought several companies built them during the war. Sorry for asking a Garand question, but someone else brought it up first.

By the way, I shot my RC Mauser for the first time last Friday. If all matching rifles function any better than it, I had better start saving up for one now.

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It's my comment so I'll explain it: The only two manufacturers of the M1 Garand during WW2 were Springfield and Winchester. The last Winchester rolled off the assembly line in June of 1945. If you mean "during the war" as including Korea, then there were three from 1951 to 1953: Springfield, International Harvester, and Harrington & Richardson. The Springfield rifles made during this period are truly the creme de la creme of M1s. The M1 carbine was ONLY manufactured during WW2 and it had nine contractors/manufacturers and had the highest production of any WW2 military rifle. While I am a Kar.98k collector, shooter, and afficienado, the finest battle rifle to come out of WW2 was, hands down, the M1 Garand.

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TrentM
Gunboards Member



USA
43 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 12:22:14 AM
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Thanks for the information. I always assumed that the H&R and IH rifles were made during WWII when the demand was the highest. I apologize for asking another Garand question, but do you have any idea why Springfield couldn't keep up wih demand during Korea when there should have been millions of surplus rifles around anyway?

Going back to the original question on this thread, I don't understand why the German army would have tolerated non-interchangable parts. Regardless of when the weapon was originally designed or how many factories were building it, shouldn't interchangeablity be expected for a service rifle?


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 12:45:17 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by TrentM

Thanks for the information. I always assumed that the H&R and IH rifles were made during WWII when the demand was the highest. I apologize for asking another Garand question, but do you have any idea why Springfield couldn't keep up wih demand during Korea when there should have been millions of surplus rifles around anyway?

Going back to the original question on this thread, I don't understand why the German army would have tolerated non-interchangable parts. Regardless of when the weapon was originally designed or how many factories were building it, shouldn't interchangeablity be expected for a service rifle?

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Trent, I have a Mossberg M590A1 w/Surefire 623 tactical light stoked up w/00 buck, and a side stock pouch w/4 spare 00 buck and 2 rifled slugs that stays within fairly easy reach. Why? The chances of me being a victim of violent crime in my home are slim. I live in a good neighborhood, good neighbors, alarm system, deadbolts, and a boxer that sleeps at the foot of the bed. Why...because it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It's easy for us to judge with 50 years' hindsight (which is 20/20). Go back to 1951: Our WW2 Garands were worn out, there was serious talk of nuking the Chinese pouring into Korea, the Russians had nukes, things were testy in Europe and we were facing possible WW3. Winchester was offline and if we would have had to draft and mobilize a huge army to fight the communist hoardes where were the fresh M1s to come from? In the early 1950s the US had much more reason to get IHC and HR rolling with M1 production than I do keeping a taclit mossy stoked w/buckshot near my bed.

As for the Germans "tolerating" noninterchangeability in K98ks, well, they were more interested in arming the Wehrmacht and conquering the world quickly than diddling about trying to get perfect interchangeability with the K98k. In any event, the German infantry platoon was to support the MG.34 teams, not vice versa. The bigger question is why the Germans tolerated initiating Barbarossa a month late to punish the Jugs, why they tolerated the T.34, and why they tolerated the encirclement and destruction of Von Paulus' Sixth Army at Stalingrad. I reckon it's the same reason why we tolerate mosquitos, rain, tornados, hurricanes, etc.

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Edited by - Hambone on 09/05/2006 12:49:30 AM


kidao35
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
797 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 07:54:37 AM
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FWIW, you can run into similar parts fitting issues when dealing with Winchester M1 Garands.


BP_redbear
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
171 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 09:51:36 AM
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Good point about the German infantry's role being to support the machine guns, whereas American doctrine used the machine gun to support the infantry.

So, the K98k rifle was still pretty heavily hand-crafted. Perhaps this is one reason which they are so coveted. Was it the same with the MG34, 9hand-crafting), before they simplified production into the MG42? Obviously, we all believe that the K98 is a fine rifle.

Coincidentally, my last name is Paulus. Haven't found any connection. My grandfather fought on the American side, apparently the family joked that 'cousin' General Friedrich Paulus was on the other side.


TrentM
Gunboards Member



USA
43 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 10:04:54 AM
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Hey, I didn't mean to offend anyone. If anyone who worked in the German armaments industry in WWII read my post I hope you will accept my apology.



Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 10:16:50 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by TrentM

Hey, I didn't mean to offend anyone. If anyone who worked in the German armaments industry in WWII read my post I hope you will accept my apology.

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You certainly didn't offend me Trent. It is hoped you didn't get offended at the perception that someone was offended. The "why are parts numbered" / "interchangeability" issue is about a monthly thread it seems, but always a good question. We oughta get BiO to pin a topic in the FAQs section. I don't see how any German armaments worker would be offended, if they even happened to be alive, connected to the internet, and reading Gunboards .

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Edited by - Hambone on 09/05/2006 11:37:47 AM


uboat534
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
125 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 12:25:03 PM
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Most postwar manufactured M-1's rarely made it to Korea. From 46-51 there was a huge clean and repair program for WWII small arms . Most of those went to korea. Just thiughts from a M-1 nut Chris

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Shit happens when you party naked!


jumo213
Gunboards Premium Member



Germany
212 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 4:45:11 PM
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The reason for the interchangeability of mauser parts was the german industrial standard (DIN - Deutsche Industrie Norm).

Jumo213

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Besseres kann kein Volk vererben,
als der eigenen Väter Brauch.
Wenn des Volkes Bräuche sterben,
stirbt des Volkes Seele auch.


solman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1615 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 7:23:14 PM
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bone, have you though of triple ought? more pellets. im a southpaw, so auto anything is right there by my face. i can do but dont like it. just give me a chromed tanker.

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Trompe la mort


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 7:48:15 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by solman

bone, have you though of triple ought? more pellets. im a southpaw, so auto anything is right there by my face. i can do but dont like it. just give me a chromed tanker.

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Good point Solman. I've thought about it but to be honest I've never tried patterning 000 in it. I get a pretty tight group out to 25 yds with that modified accuchoke and Federal 00. 000 is good stuff up close from what I hear, as is #4 shot.

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solman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1615 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 9:05:39 PM
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triple is like .28 cal as opposed to .32?? not sure but insted of 9 you get 12 or 15. wing em in the house and better chance at the 75 yd running shot. havent tried #4. talken deer now...LOL

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Trompe la mort


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 9:11:11 PM
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000 or 00 or 4 shot or even 8 shot concentrated at about 20 feet is going to make a real mess. I think you nailed it re caliber. The lighter shot doesn't penetrate as much the lighter you go. People can rail on an on about 5.56 vs. 7.62 and .45 vs. 9mm, but out to about 15-20 yds buckshot rules ;)

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Bill In Indiana
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1661 Posts
Posted - 09/05/2006 : 10:41:42 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by TrentM

Going back to the original question on this thread, I don't understand why the German army would have tolerated non-interchangable parts. Regardless of when the weapon was originally designed or how many factories were building it, shouldn't interchangeablity be expected for a service rifle?

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It is not so much a matter of non iterchangeable parts as it is part tolerances. For example...If part A needs to fit into part B....and both parts have a + or - manufacturing tolerance of 10 thousandth's of an inch in most cases the two parts will fit together under normal manufacturing conditions where they normally are only 5 thousadths out of tolerance. But if you get one part B that is 9 thousandth's too small, and part A that is 9 thousandths too large, they may not work. Or may not fit together well, or as well as two parts that are equally out of spec.

In 98k's the parts will mostly interchange, except in cases of out of spec tolerances being to extremes on one or more parts. Hence numbering to keep the matching parts together. Later when they relaxed specs to make for a looser fit, the numbering was not needed as the parts were loose enough that they will all fit.

If you tighten up tolerances to make sure all parts are perfectly in spec, you get a higher reject part rate. So there is a + or - spec used to minimize reject parts, but also to minimize rejected entire rifles.

At best building a machine like a rifle is a compromise. You may build a great rifle with very well fitting parts one day, and the next day on the same assembly line with a "luck of the draw" set of parts assemble one with parts all at extreme ends of tolerance standards that will fit and function to acceptible levels, but will not function as well as the one with the tighter fitting parts.

This is why you get two cars from the same plant, same company built on the same day, and one will be a "lemon", and the other will work well it's entire service life.

As a side note, + or - specs are why you can "pick" a lock. If they built locks to perfect tolerances, they would be impossible to pick.


Wehrmacht Sniper
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
664 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 02:03:53 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by TrentM

Can someone explain the comment about there being only two manufacturers of M1 Garands? I thought several companies built them during the war. Sorry for asking a Garand question, but someone else brought it up first.

By the way, I shot my RC Mauser for the first time last Friday. If all matching rifles function any better than it, I had better start saving up for one now.

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I wouldn't go quite that far after one outing. To be honest, the first 1-3 outings with a 'new' RC Mauser usually consist of figuring out how far to the left, then to the right, then back to the left a little you have to float your front sight, then figuring out how high you shoot at 100yards, 200 yards on the 100m and 200m settings and then figuring out what ammunition your Mauser likes and shoots well with as well as some secondguessng like....did I overtighten the screws?

When I started shooting with my first K98, I went to the range with a bag full of Yugo surplus ammo and fired away. I quickly noticed that it seemed to shoot 6-8 inches left but yet, I also had fliers to the right. Hmmmm...unaccurate? So I went home, unhappy, disappointed and a few weeks passed before I decided to go out again but this time armed with a front sight adjuster to tweek the zero. Shot some factory Wolf ammo and all of a sudden, the rifle hit nothing but the 8,9,10 rings at 100 and 200 yards.

Unless you have an issue with your rifle such as a worn crown, worn/pitted bore or a severly warped stock that provided bad fitment, I think you may want to experiment a bit with your current rifle.

What ammo are you using?

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* The German Sniper Code *

1. Fight fanatically
2. Shoot calm and contemplated, fast shots lead nowhere, concentrate on the hit
3. Your greatest opponent is the enemy sniper, outsmart him
4. Always only fire one shot from your position, if not you will be discovered
5. The trench tool prolongs your life
6. Practice in distance judging
7. Become a master in camouflage and terrain usage
8. Practice constantly, behind the front and in the homeland, your shooting skills
9. Never let go of your sniper rifle
10. Survival is ten times camouflage and one time firing

" For among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised. " - Nicolo Machiavelli

" The way to be safe is to never be secure. " - Benjamin Franklin

" I know that there are many people in Germany who feel sick when they see this black tunic; we can understand that. " - Heinrich Himmler


TrentM
Gunboards Member



USA
43 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2006 : 2:00:16 PM
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MCRANTAMPA,
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was very pleased with how my RC shot. Even using the 50's Yugo surplus that people don't seem to like the rifle was very accurate. The bolt action was also very smooth. I was rushed for time and didn't get to shoot as much as I wanted to, but based on what I saw that day I believe I have an excellent shooter. What I meant in my post is that if a matched rifle is really better than what I've got, then I need to get one just so I can experience what it is like.
Trent
 
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