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gunhorde
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3782 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 12:09:06 PM
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I may be opening a can of worms here, but I'm just wondering what the general thoughts are with regards to stripping the varnish and paint off of these RC stocks. The varnish on mine was heavy in some places, and flaking off in others, so I stripped it off to reveal the original laminate. The heavy black paint also came off the take-down disk and the receiver crossbolt bar. I've applied a generous coat of high-quality tung-oil to it, and it looks fine, but radically different from what I had (that old varnish was DARK). I've left most of my mil-surps alone except for removing the cosmoline from the wood as much as I could, then oiling it. This is one of the exceptions, since I wanted to see the original appearance, including the take-down disk and crosbolt bar (which has a waffenampt on it). Thanks in advance for any comments, and sorry so long-winded...

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Gunhorde

Milsurps.... like legal crack.

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Todd A
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
370 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 1:52:56 PM
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Well you already did it...so changing your mind isn't possible.Personally I wouldn't have.But it is your rifle.


Pisgah
Gold Bullet Club



954 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 1:55:42 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Todd A

Well you already did it...so changing your mind isn't possible.Personally I wouldn't have.But it is your rifle.

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Ditto Todd A's sentiments.

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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 3:54:10 PM
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I also removed the Soviet arsenal applied-with-a-broom shellac & paint since {A} it had no real historical significance and {B} it looked like crap.

A few coats of Tung Oil later ...







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Todd A
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
370 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 5:34:48 PM
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It is not my place to say what one can do to thier rifles.So if you must strip the Russian finish off...well your gonna do it any way.If the German history is what you want then get a German rifle not refinished by the Russians.There are slight mis-matched rifles out there for reasonable prices,you just have to find them the old fashioned way by beating the bushes.

By the way..these mis-matched K98's used to be really cheap,the bottom of the collector market,suitible for refinishing projects.Since the flood of RC's in the not so distant past the prices and interest has risen (at least in my experiance).So in the not so distant future it is not unthinkable that un-messed with Rc's might go up in collectability,and value.

Again ..not preaching....but something to think about.


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 5:59:05 PM
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I doubt that one of these mixmaster RC 98ks still wearing their sloppy coat of Soviet shellac and black paint will ever do anything to increase the value on one of these pups. As I understand it, they were refinished as Arsenal BusyWork projects by the Sovs in, like, the 60s and/or 70s. It sure looks like it ...

... but I agree, to each his own.

If the Sovs hadn't disassembled, "refinished", reassembled & force-matched via EP and, instead, cleaned & cosmolined them, they would have been worth a LOT more. Rather inconsiderate of the Soviets to NOT consider the feelings of us US collectors 30 years later, dontcha think? <chuckle>

I still find it humorous (and a tad disturbing) when someone goes on and on that the RC that they just received is, say, a 1937 S/147 ... when, in actuality, it is only a 1937 S/147 barreled receiver, y'know?

I think back to the milsurps at the Masons department store in Hampton, VA in 1967-68 ... wooden barrels full of longguns and wooden boxes full of pistols ... none of the prices were over ~$12.00, IIRC ... <sigh>



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Puska24
Gunboards Member



39 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 6:31:44 PM
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I agree with youngblood....

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Edited by - Puska24 on 05/08/2004 6:32:04 PM


sgtgeorge
Gunboards Super Premium Member



446 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 6:48:34 PM
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I have stripped mine and tung oiled it. The gun looks so much better. I did not sand it, but used a scotch brite pad to assist in the removal of that red [email protected]

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gunhorde
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3782 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 7:49:02 PM
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I figured there'd be mixed comments with regards to loss of history behind the rifle, etc. But since I'm not interested in the actual VALUE of the rifle, I wanted to see what is was under all that red varnish. The removal of the varnish showed me the actual stock appearance, and it was coming off in places anyway. It also revealed the original S/N of the stock on the underside, as well as two proof marks and a waffenampt on the receiver cross-bar. The mix of mis-matched parts on it OTHER than the barrel and receiver is pretty amazing, I'm surprised it all fits together in the first place. I don't regret doing it, but I won't be stripping any other rifles, and I'll probably leave any future RC K98's I purchase as-is. I've got two Vz24's that are original finished except for some cleaning, as are the rest of my milsurps. I agree that the original finishes on a lot of these rifles ADDS to their allure, rather than detracts from it. One of my M48a's has seen a lot of obvious wear and use, but I haven't thought twice (or even ONCE) about altering it's appearance.
Thanks for the honest opinions and comments, from a K98 newbie....

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Gunhorde

Milsurps.... like legal crack.

Stalingrad Postal Match results were posted June 30th - Thanks to everyone who helped/participated!

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Todd A
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
370 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 9:04:29 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Youngblood


I
I think back to the milsurps at the Masons department store in Hampton, VA in 1967-68 ... wooden barrels full of longguns and wooden boxes full of pistols ... none of the prices were over ~$12.00, IIRC ... <sigh>



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Hah I wish I could remember those days....I wasn't born till '69

But yes..to each his own


zampilot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3991 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 9:36:54 PM
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I cleaned mine off with acetone and then applied sunflower oil. Leaving the russian markings but not their shellac (which I could have the cat hiss at and watch it flake off), while maintaining it with the german preference (so it's said). IMHO on this rifle, the sunflower oil works surprisingly well and doesnt have that gaudy "Tung Oil Finish" gloss. Real Tung Oil is very spendy, and not for this kind of project.

Nirvana said: "While these rifles are worth less than a matched original K98, that isnt to say they are worth nothing as a result."
I agree. While collectors of US Arms pride themselves on "whole" and "correct" S.A.'s, W.R.A.'s etc, my opinion is if you have one of those, it didnt go anywhere nor do anything and why is obvious. I'll take my mixmasters anyday, having already done that "restore" thing. When the restoration was complete I looked at it and said "So...why'd I do that?." I parted it out and bought three different rifles. Lesson learned. Not necessarily the hard way. The gun just didnt 'do it' for me!

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I'd like a Riihimaki M/28-30, just to round things out!
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Edited by - zampilot on 05/08/2004 9:44:07 PM


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 10:08:56 PM
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I happily refinish any milsurp that I deem needs it. Below are the two 91/30s in my collection. Both came with shellac jobs that, closer than 10' (they both looked great from 30' away), looked like they were done with a 4" brush and after a liter of vodka. The barrel bands were shellaced on and anyplace where the bluing looked thin (any several where it didn't) got some of that black pseudo blue slathered on.

The top one I stained with minwax golden oak and finished with Tung. The Tung did not darken as had hoped ... but I am still delighted with the result.

On the bottom one I experimented with spray shellac. I gave it 17-18 thin coats of two different colors and hand-blended it with a DA soaked piece of teeshirt wrapped around a 2" foam brush. I think that it came out looking great.



Another view of the shellaced stock ... lottsa work went into this one ...



Both the Yugo and Albanian SKSs came with terrible finishes so I redid latter with Chestnut Ridge (to match the untouched handguard) + Tung and the former with a mix of golden oak and another stain (I forget which) to replicate the original light color + Tung.

Both of my SVT-40s arrived with well done ReArse Jobs ... the very first good Soviet ReArsing jobs that I have seen. They artfully shellaced the wood before installing the metal parts. Even though they show some wear, my SVT-40s I will not need to refinish.

The ar44 pictured in my first post in this thread presented me with a challenge ... I had never refinished a laminated stock. It turned out OK, but I was very glad that I kept its "bath time" to an absolute minimum. I had to finish-sand it with 500 to smooth & remove the fur (there were no cartouches to lose) brought out by the stripping process ... but 3 coats (IIRC) of Tung really brought out the beauty of the laminate.



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gunhorde
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3782 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 11:03:36 PM
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Nice looking firearms, Youngblood, especially the RC K98 you first pictured. That's pretty much what mine looks like now after stripping the stock and applying the Tung oil. I'll give it a light go-over with some fine synthetic steel wool and give it another coat and call it done. I also REALLY like the way your 91/30 stock turned out !

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Gunhorde

Milsurps.... like legal crack.

Stalingrad Postal Match results were posted June 30th - Thanks to everyone who helped/participated!

Have you shot the C&R Pistol Postal Match? Click here for match details

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - gunhorde on 05/08/2004 11:13:39 PM


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 11:33:44 PM
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Thanks, JH!

My RC 98k is not as shiney now. I took that pic right after the last coat dried and I was able to reassemble. I waited acoupla weeks and then carefully knocked the shine down to a dull satin with some 0000.

That RC is one of the $110 AIMSurplus Specials that they offered last Fall. I wasn't planning on buying another 98k (even though they are my original milsurp love) but for that price I figured that I would spin the wheel ... and I lucked out because the bore is almost mirror ...

I found that the blue comes off very easily (if you look closely you will notice that the barrel is now "in the white") so in addition to buffing out EP numbers or replacing the parts, I will probably magnetite it the next time I setup the gear to do a batch.





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gunhorde
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3782 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 08:59:12 AM
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No regrets, I was just asking what the consensus is on the subject. I like this one better stripped, that's not the case for some of my other milsurps, I leave 'em as is except for removing the grease & cosmoline. Thanks for the input though !


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Todd A

Well you already did it...so changing your mind isn't possible.Personally I wouldn't have.But it is your rifle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Gunhorde

Milsurps.... like legal crack.

Stalingrad Postal Match results were posted June 30th - Thanks to everyone who helped/participated!

Have you shot the C&R Pistol Postal Match? Click here for match details


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 10:56:04 AM
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Since I am the only person to use the term "mixmaster", Nirvana, you must be directing this to me.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nirvana

... To discount their collector value by saying "they are basically mixmasters" is to imply also that 99% of us longarms are also not collectable. ...
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Either your reading comprehension skills failed you or your are trying to put words in my mouth. Read it again.

"I doubt that one of these mixmaster RC 98ks still wearing their sloppy coat of Soviet shellac and black paint will ever do anything to increase the value on one of these pups."

The reference is to the shellac & black paint, not the fact that they are mixmasters. The mixmasters reference ties in farther down in the post.


quote:
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... While these rifles are worth less than a matched original K98, that isnt to say they are worth nothing as a result. ...
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Doesn't it bother you that you are replying to something that I never stated (or implied)? You appear to have completely misread my post and then dashed off into left field for a reply.



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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 11:39:24 AM
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FWIW, I can see one reason that someone might want an RC 98k with the original ReArse Shellac in-place. That would be somewhat comparable to only buying a used car with the original paint job, since only God (and the guy trying to sell it to you) know what may be hiding under that new paint.

If you get the RC 98k with the original Sov Shellac still applied, you know that nothing else has been done to it ... just the German finish followed by the Sov finish.

With a piece that has been collector refinished you might have trouble determining what that final finish actually is if you are not buying from the refinisher.

I still do not think that the shellac & black still being in-place will effect the general market value of these rifles. If anything, it may even reduce the value slightly, across the board, compared to RC 98ks that have been nicely cleaned up and oil-finished.



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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 4:49:44 PM
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The "mixmasters" reference was the key in trying to understand to what you were responding ...


... so, lemme make sure I understand this ...

... you say you were responding in this thread to something that Puska24 posted in another thread ... without either explaining that in your post or referencing the material in a quote?

"Sorry you misunderstood me, or misread my post and dashed off into a reply."

Yep, you are absolutely right ... I should have been able to figure that out ... <chuckle>

Nirvana, that explanation is just about the silliest thing that I have read on Gunboards ... which is fine because it'll make a good anecdote ...


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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2004 : 11:05:56 PM
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Hahaha ... Nirvana deleted the post to which I responded above ... ultimately, his explanation must have been too silly even for him ...





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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 1:46:40 PM
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I just noticed that Nirvana also deleted his 1st post in this thread ... that is the post that, according to his 2nd post (also disappeared), never belonged here ...


Zampilot:
quote:
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... IMHO on this rifle, the sunflower oil works surprisingly well and doesnt have that gaudy "Tung Oil Finish" gloss. Real Tung Oil is very spendy, and not for this kind of project ...
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Tung Oil, while a bit expensive, is not that prohibitive ... even on a project like this.

Where did you get the sunflower oil? ... just the stuff from the grocery? How does its finish/look compare to BLO & Tung?






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When you are at the range or shooting
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AZshooter
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



South Sandwich Islands
7545 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 7:45:15 PM
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When you're captured, you have to wear the prison garb assigned you. Once 'liberated', you return to the clothes you wore beforehand. IMO, returning the Russian captures to their original condition is no crime; the shellac as applied and black paint were not enhancements, just done on a utilitarian basis.

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And, Yes I AM Master of the Gunboards. Connie said so himself.




bdgfate
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1636 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 8:11:14 PM
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Returning to original condition is one thing... but Tung-oil or even BLO is not original condition for a K98. A variety of oils were used by the Wehrmacht, but Mineral Oil (available as Butcher's Block oil) is the closest you can get to original without the potential to go rancid.

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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 8:30:13 PM
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<shrug> AFAIAC, Tung Oil (my preference) or BLO is fine for refinishing these rifles.

Mineral Oil in the guise of Butcher's Block oil, huh? I am going to have to keep an eye out for that when I am in stores that may carry it. Thanks for the info!



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When you are at the range or shooting
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Edited by - Youngblood on 05/10/2004 8:30:56 PM


bdgfate
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1636 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 8:47:02 PM
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FYI, I noticed recently that Home Depot stocks the Mineral Oil.

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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 8:57:36 PM
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Thanks again! I was thinking about going by there this week anyway and now I have another item for the list ... and I also have several old cutting boards that are a tad on the dry side ...



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Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 11:32:25 PM
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Besides the fact that I didn't clean off one of my stock disks...which stock(s)have not been stripped and coated with BLO.



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Download Attachment:
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DOUGISKULL
Gunboards Premium Member



123 Posts
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 11:39:26 PM
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stripping a stock is ok as long as its just the shellac, with denatured alcohol, and just coat with tung oil, such as i did with mine, turned out OK i think..

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gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 06:10:18 AM
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My thoughts on it is that it's your rifle...do what you want to do.

I just picked up a RC K98, and will be refinishing it. That shellac is just nasty looking, IMO.

I just got done refinishing a 91/30 which also had reddish shellac on it, and it had some really pretty wood underneath it all. Danged shame to keep it hidden, IMO.


gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 06:13:43 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Youngblood


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I hope mine looks this nice when I'm done with it. This is pretty much the vision I had for it.

All you used was tung oil?


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 10:35:56 AM
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IIRC, that is 3 coats of the Tung Oil. AAMOF, it was good that that was enough since it exhausted my ~decade-old supply of polymerized Tung Oil.

I now have a brand new can from Brownells. This does not say that it is polymerized, though, so it will probably take much longer between coats. If it does, I will boil some of it to see if I can manually polymerize the stuff.



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When you are at the range or shooting
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Edited by - Youngblood on 05/11/2004 10:44:02 AM


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 10:41:44 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by gary42141

... I just got done refinishing a 91/30 which also had reddish shellac on it, and it had some really pretty wood underneath it all. Danged shame to keep it hidden, IMO.

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My thought exactly ... beautiful wood ... obviously new, in my case ... here is a pic of the stripped wood that came on my Izhevsk ...






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When you are at the range or shooting
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Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 11:35:23 AM
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Youngblood: Just curious about your take on using Tung Oil. I first started out using Behr's Tung Oil, but didn't achieve a finish that was as satisfactory as the BLO.

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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 12:12:15 PM
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I originally tried BLO & BTO, 10-12 years ago ... wait, no, that was 15 years ago, 1989 ... anyway, I still have the original can of BLO from then, somewhere (just checked in the basement ... must be in the garage). I got the Tung Oil at the same time. I had read up on the two and tried them both. For some forgotten reason I much preferred the Tung ... I think that it had to do with the fact that I found it easier to use and the "final" finish came up quicker.

I wish that I had the original Tung Oil can, but it disappeared years ago ... I have been carefully putting the remaining oil in smaller and smaller containers (that was before Bloxygen <grin>) and finally used it up.

Now that I am about to start adventures with a new supply of Tung Oil, I am also lining up alternatives with which to experiment.

Walnut Oil, Mineral Oil and Sunflower Oil, so far ...




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are at the range or shooting
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Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 12:40:47 PM
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You're right on finish time...BLO takes forever to dry. I am also curious about different oils, but haven't had the time ti experiment yet.

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gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 6:31:14 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Youngblood


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gary42141

... I just got done refinishing a 91/30 which also had reddish shellac on it, and it had some really pretty wood underneath it all. Danged shame to keep it hidden, IMO.

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My thought exactly ... beautiful wood ... obviously new, in my case ... here is a pic of the stripped wood that came on my Izhevsk ...






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Here's mine after refinishing it.




Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 7:02:04 PM
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That's a beaut!



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When you are at the range or shooting
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gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 5:08:05 PM
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Well...I scrubbed on it for a day or so, but couldn't get the finish to lighten up quite as much as yours, but I think it came out nice. Definitely better than with the red shellac.

I'd also like to have one with the walnut stock, if I can find one.



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ShKAS
Gunboards Super Premium Member



457 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 8:34:01 PM
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Boy, I sure hope the folks on the Collector's Forum don't read these posts. There would be all manner of comments like "Bubba", "ruined", and the like.

I also strip the crappy shellac off of any milsurp that I deem needs it, and I couldn't possibly care less what someone else thinks about it.


gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 9:28:24 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ShKAS

Boy, I sure hope the folks on the Collector's Forum don't read these posts. There would be all manner of comments like "Bubba", "ruined", and the like.

I also strip the crappy shellac off of any milsurp that I deem needs it, and I couldn't possibly care less what someone else thinks about it.

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They'd probably dislike the fuel injection and power disc brakes on my '69 GTX too.




fireman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1369 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 9:55:38 PM
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I guess I am one of those guys then. IMHO when you strip off the original arsenal finish you are screwing with the history of it. You are in fact bubbaizing it. The soviets captured the rifles and rebuilt them, just like the finns. This is a part of the history of the rifle. A legit military arsenal rework. I know the arguments, there are plenty of them, they will never be worth much, there are tons of them, etc. It isn't about the money! The fact is when you strip a legit military finish you are bubba.

When the Finnish Mosin-nagants fist came in at $20 or $30 guys sanded and finished the stocks with BLO or poly. Now every one is mad about it. Seen a original Krag at a show recently? How about original k98s? Finns are tough to find, plenty of sporterized Enfields around hard to find a nice WW1 date though isn't it? Lots of 03 springfields around with new blue jobs. Those guys were saying the same things, "this old military gun won't be worth anything" "there are lots them around" etc. Well there aren't.

Like Todd A and Pisgah said it is your rifle, I support your right to do with your property as you see fit. But you are screwing with the history of it.




Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 11:27:56 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gary42141

Well...I scrubbed on it for a day or so, but couldn't get the finish to lighten up quite as much as yours ...
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I initially used a product named CitriStrip. Neutralized that with Mineral Spirits. Dry. Then a water rinse. Dry. Then a DA bath + scrub to lose any remaining sheallac & black. Dry. Then a Simple Green in hot water & scrub to get rid of all the crap that the others missed ...

The wood on both of my 91/30s is obviously brand new. It had no dings, dents or cracks ... I would guess it to be birch. Pretty.



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When you are at the range or shooting
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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2004 : 11:30:26 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by fireman

... The fact is when you strip a legit military finish you are bubba ...
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One of many definitions.



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When you are at the range or shooting
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gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 12:06:49 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by fireman
The fact is when you strip a legit military finish you are bubba.
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I'd be careful not to confuse opinion with fact.




War is Peace
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



608 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 12:51:16 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by gary42141


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fireman
The fact is when you strip a legit military finish you are bubba.
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I'd be careful not to confuse opinion with fact.



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Gary:

I'd be careful not to confuse desire with reality. Those of you that take pride in "restoring" your military rifles are pretending that they are something they are not. I'm sorry if it offends you or anyone else, but when you chose to personalize your rifle, making it pretty or the way you think it's supposed to look, you have destroyed any and all serious collector's value. In my opinion, the refinished rifles shown above are ruined. I would not own them and I think it's a shame that the owners could not appreciate them in their original state. Having just stated my opinion of the wisdom of refinishing these grand old rifles, I'll reaffirm the obvious: Your rifle, your property, your decision. Just don't expect universal approval of your handiwork.


gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 01:08:59 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by War is Peace
when you chose to personalize your rifle, making it pretty or the way you think it's supposed to look, you have destroyed any and all serious collector's value.
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And?

Personally, a rifle or anything else has no value to me unless it's as I want it to be. Since I own it instead of you, then the value it has to me is all that really matters.

When you buy a rifle, you can do as you wish with it, and I won't feel obliged to call you anal retentive or some other slur. Deal?


Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 09:02:53 AM
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Oh great the sharks are in the pond. Can anything be more pitiful than someone trying to tell you to do with your own rifle. Ruin an RC? That’s an interesting statement… anything is an improvement over the Russian finish. Guess what…here is the history of one of my rifles….it fought on the eastern front or was captured in Berlin…it was taken into a depot and stored…years later it was refurbished…parts were stripped of the rifle and thrown into bins with many others…re-blued then assembled with various parts from other rifles….etched with numbers…the stock was ground on the side and covered with shellac (if its history wasn’t ruined at this point, you can call me Meier (few will get this reference)…a few more years go by, rust starts to form on parts of the new blue, Russians decide to make a buck and sell it to an importer in the US…I buy the rifle…clean it, strip off the finish and apply new oil (that is now part of its history too). When I am finished with the rifle…it looks the same as when I started, just no flakes, and if it wasn’t for the smell of BLO, I would not be able to tell the difference. No worse than a good portion of the bring back stocks that have no doubt been messed with (yet denied by their owners) through their life span Everybody collects their rifles for their own reasons….
You collect it for the history…bravo, good job…keep it up…now go away.


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I have nothing, whether informative, witty, or entertaining to add to my signature…


Todd A
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
370 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 10:11:58 AM
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Jeez...I have not seen anyone say no you can't refinish your stock.

What I have seen are opinions both for and against.Kind of like what the title of this thread is all about.We "non-refinishers" know we can't change your minds.However by expressing our opinions on this topic maybe we can help someone who is undecided on this issue. The original poster asked for such opinions,unless the thread topic heading has changed our opinions on this topic are as valid as yours.




Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 12:52:41 PM
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Thank goodness everyone in this thread has been civil ... I am sure that we have all experienced threads on this subject that become bloody. <chuckle>

Theoretically:
On one end of The Scale you find the One Guy, SUPER PRIG (def: one who offends or irritates by observance of proprieties (as of speech or manners) in a pointed manner or to an obnoxious degree ... there is probably a better word out there, but <shrug>), that insists that if you even clean a milsurp or use something other than original kit/tools/accessories, you are a bubba ... on the other end you have the One Guy, SUPER BUBBA, who has an irresistible urge to change something about every single part of the firearm. All of the rest of us (the calm heads, here) are somewhere in the middle.

The natural tendency is for everyone to feel that all to the left of them on The Scale are Bubbas.

Those invoking the "B"-word should keep in mind that they, too, are Bubbas because there is always someone to right of them on the Scale.

We are ALL Bubbas and we are ALL Prigs ... because it is all relative ...





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Total Classic Gunboards Posts: 1191
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Edited by - Youngblood on 05/13/2004 12:55:03 PM


War is Peace
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



608 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 1:17:01 PM
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Bubba doth protest too much, methinks. On countless occasions the refinish vs. leave it alone controversy has been debated online and without exception the proponents of “restoration” and the make it look pretty school, wrap themselves in the cloak of freedom and victim hood.

Refinishers say that those who disapprove of their creative endeavors are trying to control them. Those same refinishers implicitly demand that others must accept and approve of their restoration efforts. Who’s trying to control who? Don’t you see that just like you are free to make your rifle pretty, others are free to question your wisdom and taste?

If you are so convinced that you are correct, why does it so annoy you that others think you are wrong?
When a person is overly defensive or engaged in a rousing grandstand of back-slapping, it’s often because that person harbors doubts about his decisions and actions. If you are a refinisher and you are confident in your choice and your handwork, you should not feel compelled to personally attack those who think you are mistaken.




Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 1:59:23 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by War is Peace

Bubba doth protest too much, methinks ...
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??? Is this meant as a response to my last post?


quote:
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... If you are so convinced that you are correct, why does it so annoy you that others think you are wrong? ...
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Must not be directed at me since neither this nor the first quote above is reasonably compatible with what I wrote.


quote:
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... If you are a refinisher and you are confident in your choice and your handwork, you should not feel compelled to personally attack those who think you are mistaken.
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Absolutely ... but ...

Many consider the term "bubba" to be derogatory ... certainly most, if not all, of those who invoke do.

I don't care about the term because I am a bubba in some of my attitudes on this subject matter and not in others ... as are we all ...<shrug>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are at the range or shooting
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Total Classic Gunboards Posts: 1191
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k98k792
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



7165 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 2:40:27 PM
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Your rifle,your choice.

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Mark R COG 792
Set the controls for the heart of the sun!
AK Mania! I'm a carrier.
Administrator http://www.militaryfirearm.com/



Nirvana
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
709 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 2:45:48 PM
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Youngbloods strategy in dealing with criticism of modifying rifles to take everything said against the subject as a personnal attack against him. In doing such, he can defend it personnally, and feel in some way that he has taken the moral high ground, defeating a "personnal" attack, rather than a subjective opinion on a subject, in this case the subject being modifying rifles.

So, I will make a complete quote here, and see if rather than personnally attacking me, Youngblood can actually attack my logic.

"The natural tendency is for everyone to feel that all to the left of them on The Scale are Bubbas.

Those invoking the "B"-word should keep in mind that they, too, are Bubbas because there is always someone to right of them on the Scale.

We are ALL Bubbas and we are ALL Prigs ... because it is all relative ... "
-youngblood

So, if modifying rifles is all relative, then we must exist in one of two situations...either....there is only ONE TRUE "bubba, modifying rifles in the most foul way, and everyone else is on the other side of the spectrum...or there is only ONE TRUE collector, the guy who refuses to do anything to his rifles, and everyone else is somewhere on the other side of the spectrum in some form. Okay...
so lets apply this to other fields.
There is only one real murderer, the guy who has done the foulest, most cruel crime, and everyone else in the world is better than him, because in that way that relates to murders, they are better than him. Or, there is only one good person, the person who has never done anything wrong, and thus everyone else is more corrupt, and apt to the term criminal.

Or...drunk driving. Drunk driving is okay, as long as you dont hurt anyone. The only bad drunk driver is the one that hits a school bus full of kids, compared to him, we are all really just okay people.

While these may be extreme examples, they serve to prove a point. Judging everything on a relativity basis is crap, simply put. So i will apply it to military rifles.

Its okay to drill and tap two holes in a military rifle, because there is someone else out there who drills four holes in their to mount a scope base. Since they are worse than I am, I am in the right, as are all of us who drill 3 holes or less...

Simply put, these are military rifles, and as such have an intrinsic collector value. Modifying them to be pleasing to the eye serves no historical purpose; they werent made to have figured walnut stocks with staning and buffing to bring the shine out. While some may have naturally nice stocks, this doesnt serve to justify modifying the rest that dont. Doing this takes away from the collector aspect of these rifles, and turns them into showpieces of ones wood working skills, or in some bad cases (none shown here), ones lack of wood working skills.

I personnally have no problem when someone does whatever they want to their own rifle. It is their property, and with that ownership comes the right to do any and everything to their rifle. However, to use failed logic to justify modifications, or personnal attacks to deflect differing opinions serves no real purpose. Accept that your rifles are forever changed from the way they were released from government service, and move on. I am personnaly unphased by what people chose to do, however I recognize when some collector value or interest is lost from a good intentioned modification.

In closing
While some people are not concerned with resale value, or collectability of their rifles, I am concerned about mine.
And look at it this way, if it turns out 20 yrs down the road that all the rifles modified out there are somehow worth more, I can take mine out to the garage and strip them to my hearts content, and raise their value. However, if in 20 yrs time my rifles are worth more because of their original condition, people that own refinished, drilled, or otherwise permanently altered collector rifles can non undo the modifications done to them. They will be hard pressed to sell them for the same price as mine, or even drum up the same interested as one that I may possess.
respectfully, and all respect implied.
Chris


fireman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1369 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 2:47:41 PM
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Couple of things that I need to say. If I offended some by using the term "bubba" then I am sorry. I did not mean to offend any one with that. I used it because it is a term most of us are familiar with. If however I offended any one by stating that it is wrong to strip and refinish a milsurp rifle then I am not sorry. Anything that is done to a milsurp rifle after it has left military service is customizing, no other way to look at it.

Yougblood I agree it is good that this for the most part as remained civil. Let's keep it this way.

Gary42141, you are new around here and certainly welcome to comment. However 2 of your 3 posts on this thread have poked or slapped at many members here. In fact your first post is what got me to respond. I watched this thread go to nearly 40 replies on the joy of stripping and refinishing. As Todd said this thread started as request for input. We are giving ours.

Reichpapers, yes I think you can ruin an RC. They are what they are a legitimate WW2/cold war rifle. We are not soviet armouries. If we strip and refinsih a rifle or reblue, D&T for a fake sniper or whatever it is customizing.

Again your rifle your choice and I truly support that freedom but as has been said don't expect approval.




Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 3:02:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nirvana

Youngbloods strategy in dealing with criticism of modifying rifles to take everything said against the subject as a personnal attack against him. In doing such, he can defend it personnally, and feel in some way that he has taken the moral high ground, defeating a "personnal" attack, rather than a subjective opinion on a subject, in this case the subject being modifying rifles.

So, I will make a complete quote here, and see if rather than personnally attacking me, Youngblood can actually attack my logic ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



??? What you have typed above is so-o-o-o far Out There that this is as far as I will bother going regarding anything you write ...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are at the range or shooting
ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
** CETME and FR-8 Forum Expat **
Registered on Nov 23, 2001 12:07 pm
Total Classic Gunboards Posts: 1191
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 3:16:36 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by War is Peace

Bubba doth protest too much, methinks. On countless occasions the refinish vs. leave it alone controversy has been debated online and without exception the proponents of “restoration” and the make it look pretty school, wrap themselves in the cloak of freedom and victim hood.

Refinishers say that those who disapprove of their creative endeavors are trying to control them. Those same refinishers implicitly demand that others must accept and approve of their restoration efforts. Who’s trying to control who? Don’t you see that just like you are free to make your rifle pretty, others are free to question your wisdom and taste?

If you are so convinced that you are correct, why does it so annoy you that others think you are wrong?
When a person is overly defensive or engaged in a rousing grandstand of back-slapping, it’s often because that person harbors doubts about his decisions and actions. If you are a refinisher and you are confident in your choice and your handwork, you should not feel compelled to personally attack those who think you are mistaken.

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Anti bubba doth protest too much, methinks. On countless occasions the refinish vs. leave it alone controversy has been debated online and without exception the proponents of “originality” and the Oh poo, your ruining it school, wrap themselves in the cloak of self rightousness and pomp hood.

*Refinishers say that those who disapprove of their creative endeavors are trying to control them.(Ok Dr. Phil, I won't even try to turn this one around)* Those same non refinishers implicitly demand that others must accept and approve of their refusal to alter ethics. Who’s trying to control who? Don’t you see that just like you are free to not alter your rifle, others are free to question your stance?

If you are so convinced that you are correct, why does it so annoy you that others think you are wrong?
When a person is overly defensive or engaged in a rousing grandstand of back-slapping, it’s often because that person harbors doubts about his decisions and actions. If you are a non refinisher and you are confident in your choice, you should not feel compelled to personally attack those who disagree with you.


I always like how things work both ways. On another note:

I have involved myself with many sporterizing/altering discussions throughout the years here on gunboards...previously I held the belief that rifles should not be altered...and always attacked those that came on the collectors forum with talk of chopping the stock and milling the steps off the barrel, as that was a deliberate attempt at arousing trouble…on many occasions Tuco sent the discussion to the Win’s Workbench because of it. Now I stand on the other side of the discussion, but to an extent…I merely see no harm in removing the crud off the rifle and applying a fresh coat of oil…if anything, it brings out its natural color…If you want to say it ruins the rifles history that is your prerogative, I personally don’t see it and will merily continue my practice…20 years down the road, I’ll still get the same money out of a reenactor as you would with a original Russian “bubbed” stock. In 20 years nobody will remember much about the import anyways. As a reenactor it doesn’t matter much to me…Why do people defend their actions here???? Simply because it is a natural response to being questioned…in the battle of views, generally the best write-ups give the best impression to those reading to make a choice. So to sit back and have someone give the view that what we are doing is wrong, without expecting a response is ludicrous. Just as saying that the fact that we respond to comments made denotes a certain guilt or having to justify oneself is silly.


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I have nothing, whether informative, witty, or entertaining to add to my signature…

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Edited by - Reichpapers on 05/13/2004 3:45:51 PM


Nirvana
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
709 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 3:28:54 PM
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"??? What you have typed above is so-o-o-o far Out There that this is as far as I will bother going regarding anything you write ..."
-youngblood

My point made, to the letter. You ignore the rest, and try to turn a small part into a personnal attack, implying that you dont need to reply to the rest, as it was all somehow wrong. Out of respect for this board, I will post no more replies to this thread, unless asked to. I dont want this to turn into a flame war. We are all adults, and we all share our opinions, and I feel we as a group can never really agree on this point; two camps are inevitable.
Thank you all again, respectfully
Chris


Todd A
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
370 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 3:41:27 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Reichpapers
[br
If you are a non refinisher and you are confident in your choice, you should not feel compelled to personally attack those who disagree with you.


I always liked how things work both ways.

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Aside from one Bubba comment,for which the poster apologized, I've seen no personal attacks.Except for a shark comment,and one which told others who hold differant opinions to go away...............

Seems our opinions arn't wanted.Unless they agree with yours.


Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 3:49:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Todd A


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Reichpapers
[br
If you are a non refinisher and you are confident in your choice, you should not feel compelled to personally attack those who disagree with you.


I always liked how things work both ways.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Aside from one Bubba comment,for which the poster apologized, I've seen no personal attacks.Except for a shark comment,and one which told others who hold differant opinions to go away...............

Seems our opinions arn't wanted.Unless they agree with yours.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I suppose my comment was a bit harsh..., but I forgot what the title of the thread was....I took it as a thread on removing the finish from RC's...and thought folks were coming in to bash the notion. Realised my mistake earlier, just never clarified.

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I have nothing, whether informative, witty, or entertaining to add to my signature…

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Edited by - Reichpapers on 05/13/2004 3:51:50 PM


gary42141
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 05/13/2004 : 5:37:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by War is Peace

If you are so convinced that you are correct, why does it so annoy you that others think you are wrong?
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There's a difference between having an opinion, and directing a slur towards someone whose opinion differs from your own.

You can think I'm wrong all day, if you like.


bearbaregun
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
333 Posts
Posted - 05/14/2004 : 02:28:22 AM
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Wow, what a great place if you have developed a taste for worms. I prefer the taste of sirloin and lobster and never knock those who have decided that worm is just as nutritious.

There are millions upon millions of milsurps. Personally, I only want "TO OWN" ones that are exactly as they were manufactured. This effects a system where people recognize that I am willing to pay a premium to get one. This keeps "people in the know" ready and willing to make sure that when they find something that is as it is supposed to be, they leave it as it is and it pays off. They don't often try to improve on original and if they do they soon find out that they have undermined themselves.
To be continued........


figmo
Gunboards Member



USA
41 Posts
Posted - 05/15/2004 : 10:18:45 PM
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I hope you guys don't mind if I take a stabb at pissing everyone off. My byf 44 has 5 coats of (Lord, protect us!) high resin urethane on it. I didn't buy it to put in a museum. I don't care what the collector value is - if it it ever gets sold it will be because I'm already dead. I don't like rifles that continually weep cosmoline. If there are any serious collectors reading this thread they're probably laughing at the very idea of a RC k98 having "serious collector value". Just my .02 worth

figmo


MCQueenie
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
843 Posts
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 10:18:20 PM
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Good point. I would think that if an RC will have any additional value in the future it will be as an RC. That means with all its Russian Capture "character" intact. As for mucking with 'em? Go ahead. Just helps insure the un-mucked with rifles will be less common.

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Censorship is the commonest social blasphemy because it is mostly concealed, built into us by indolence, self-interest and cowardice. John Osborne

Joke 'em if they can't take a ....


alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 1:40:03 PM
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Seems to me that the original Bubba in this case was the Russians. If you only undo what was done by them - remove the cheap shellac and bluing/paint, I don't see why that should make you a Bubba. I'm considering doing it one day when I find the time.

How about those who restore WWII aircraft to their original war condition after the was plane repainted/modified for some alternate purpose over the years?


bearbaregun
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
333 Posts
Posted - 05/19/2004 : 3:11:12 PM
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What we should be more concerned about is what the "most zealous" collectors are thinking about doing.

There are some "enlightened, caring folks" in a club in DC who want to collect everything that shoots and keep them for themselves or alter them in ways that we don't even want to think about.




Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 05/23/2004 : 7:52:25 PM
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All of these "restore" jobs will be on some gunshow table 15 or 20 years from now, and you and your buddy will be looking at them and saying...."Jeez, that's definately a refinish job...." and "...It's too bad it's refinished, it would be worth twice what he's asking for it if it was original....what a shame"

You know what it's like to see a GEW98 Danzig receiver with a hole right through the lettering to accept a lovely 3 - 9 scope?

It's just like class III, there's a finite number of surplus guns and ammo out there, and when they're gone, they're gone...and the prices will go up and up for the unadulterated ones. And I, am one who is happy that I'm saving a few from being 'restored' or destroyed. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what you do to yours, but I would suggest at least trying to use an original finish. Example, 91/30s get ONLY shellac, always has, always will. would you put water based polyurethane on a vintage 18th century high boy? Not in your right mind you wouldn't.

dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


coneten
Super King Platinum Club Member



USA
2560 Posts
Posted - 05/23/2004 : 10:38:59 PM
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I remember racks of Garands and a bunch of boots going to the range..we carried those heavy SOB's..we shot thousands of rounds through them..we cleaned the bores and internals until they were immaculate... or else.... but never oiled, stained or in any way were concerned with the wood...we never discussed the grain or finish or for that matter the armory of manufacture...they were like us boots...anonymous...the only thing that made them stand out was a SN# and a rack number..they were what they were...metal and steel..a utilitarian object for killing. I imagine Ivan, Fritz and Barry were happy to have a rifle that worked..the grain, miss matched handguards, and funky arsenal repairs were not considerations...." Sergei...I really love the finsh on your Mosin..these brass brads they used to repair mine make me so self conscious ".....if somebody handed me an RC and ammo and it was time to boogie...it could have been the crappiest, runny, red shellac..and as long as it did not affect the function..no big deal. I prefer to leave mine as they are..a little clean up. That is just the direction I have decided upon...we refer to the stocks as furniture sometimes...watch Antiques Road Show...that says enough about altering a historical surface. I personally do not CARE what anyone does with their own weapon..every one of them that gets refinished is eliminated from my look see quick quick at a gun show. I can appreciate all the hard work and effort some folks do to get the wood on their rifles to suit them and their asthetics...they look beautiful and are being protected from the elements. It is just not for me..anymore..did a couple early on and regret it. Just my two cents..I apologise beforehand for offending anyone. Cone Ten

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coneten


Reichpapers
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
517 Posts
Posted - 05/24/2004 : 08:46:57 AM
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For the benefit of those who do not touch their wood...keep in mind, nobody is talking about stripping, sanding and putting on 10 coats of a shiney tru-oil deer slayer coat. In 20 years, if my guns were on a gun show table(never will be)...you'd never know they were dicked with. From all the RC's I have seen, the Rusky finish varies from shellaced to non shellaced, all the ones I have seen have dark brown/red wood. Those that do not have shellac on them look identical to the stocks I have stripped (some spray stuff) and BLO'd. By stripping I mean one coat of Bix stain (and something) stripper for 10 min, which barely takes the dark out. Then, dry and BLO...I get the same finish without that hot day oil run. I have to smell the stocks to see which one I BLO'd. Technically I could leave them alone as what I do doesnt change their looks...but I don't like dirty stocks.

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I have nothing, whether informative, witty, or entertaining to add to my signature…


AZshooter
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



South Sandwich Islands
7545 Posts
Posted - 05/25/2004 : 8:23:48 PM
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Walnut, sunflower, Tung & linseed are all appropriate finishes. They are all varnishing oils that react with oxygen to form a tough, protective polymer. While the Germans may have used mineral oil or even motor oil in the field for stock treatments, neither is an appropriate finish for preserving gunstocks.

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And, Yes I AM Master of the Gunboards. Connie said so himself.




psy4s
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
189 Posts
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 11:42:56 PM
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Wow,
I see alot of mad and mean things in both camps. Look, All I have to say is, Look at all the posts about converting and sporterizing to 308, 30-06 and many other things. I have two Victory mod 38's one is in very bad shape. I tried to get it reparkerized and everyone I went to gave me grief about doing it. They told me that it would destroy the value. I ask, What is the value in the present condition, I was told approx $150, then I ask about the price if it were reparkerized, they said no more than $200 or $300. I guess by loosing all value it means raising it by $50 to $100 then I will take ruining it by far. By the way to the bubby callers, you can be happy, I didn't get it done. Only because there is no one here to do it. I Say DO WHAT EVER MAKES YOU HAPPY! Don't worry about bubba callers. I actually like the looks of what you did.

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Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 10:18:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by psy4s

... DO WHAT EVER MAKES YOU HAPPY! Don't worry about bubba callers ...
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There it is ...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are at the range or shooting
ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
** CETME and FR-8 Forum Expat **
Registered on Nov 23, 2001 12:07 pm
Total Classic Gunboards Posts: 1191
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psy4s
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
189 Posts
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 11:54:15 PM
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Here is a link for a mix to refinish the wood. I hope it helps.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/tungoil/index.asp

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AZshooter
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



South Sandwich Islands
7545 Posts
Posted - 05/31/2004 : 01:53:16 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by psy4s

Here is a link for a mix to refinish the wood. I hope it helps.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/tungoil/index.asp

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Unfortunately, Formby's Tung oil produces a surface varnish coat which is less desirable than an actual oil finish. There is a difference between varnish, and oxidising oils (BLO, Tung, certain seed oils). BLO and Tung, for example, penetrate into the wood before oxidising to form a tough polymer.

If you want a finish akin to a whore in lip gloss, go with a surface varnish-type finish, as shown in the above link. Otherwise, an oil finish that penetrates into the wood is more appropriate.

see my thoughts on Tung oil here: http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44621

With any oil finish, you can apply successive coats and allow them to penetrate, completely wiping off the residual surface oil afterward. This will give you a finish that protects the wood and gives the wood a sheen, without the excess shine of a surface varnish.

BLO is misunderstood by some who term it an inferior finish because it does not adequately waterproof wood. Actually a BLO finish allows the wood to breathe, permitting moisture to move both into and out of wood. Tung is more water resistant. A mix of BLO and Tung is ideal, both for application ease and durability. All oil finishes are a perpetual work in progress - they need an occasional touch up coat to be applied in the future.

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And, Yes I AM Master of the Gunboards. Connie said so himself.




HondoBlue
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
122 Posts
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 7:16:06 PM
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OK --- short-answer needed. Absent the fans of "Easy-Off Oven Cleaner" and acetone, how do I properly remove the Russian crud from my latest RC? (Which has more chips and dings than I care to mention)

Thanks for the concise...

Dave


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 02/03/2005 : 10:38:55 PM
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FYI, denatured alcohol dissolves shellac.

IIRC, I used a product name Citristrip to remove the shellac from the ComBloc rifles that I have refinished.



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When you are at the range or shooting
ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!
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** CETME and FR-8 Forum Expat **
Registered on Nov 23, 2001 12:07 pm
Total Classic Gunboards Posts: 1191
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Edited by - Youngblood on 02/03/2005 10:55:47 PM


bda
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
382 Posts
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 09:17:02 AM
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I'm going to chime in here with my $.02. I have 6 RC's and have stripped 3 of them because they looked like crap. The other 3 I left alone because I could live with it. I feel that each individual rifle needs to be handled on an individual basis, as to whether to strip or not. I guess that makes me a member of both camps. Now if we were talking about a vet bring back rifle, this conversation would not even be taking place. (I hope.)

I like to use a citrus based stripper to knock the shellac off of mine btw...

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Bryan


sgt rock
Gunboards Premium Member



151 Posts
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 6:40:40 PM
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thanks for ruining a future collectable for my kids :)


ToddE
Gunboards Member



23 Posts
Posted - 02/04/2005 : 11:04:55 PM
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Hi,

I have three K98s, one I stripped with Denatured Alcohol and two that still have the Russian Red on them along with whatever else has seeped in there over the years. I definitely like handling the stripped one more then the others, handling and shooting the Russian reds always is annoying because of the residue left by the shellac and Cosmo in the stocks. I tried to lightly clean the first one because it stained a shirt I was shooting in and the shellac came off so fast, I had to keep going to make it look OK. Turned out, kinda yellowie.

I was thinking about using Danish Oil on the stock, it works very well for knife handles and adds a layer of protection as well as warm hue to the wood. Anybody else ever use it on a rifle stock?

Oh, and to the discussion about the do versus don't, cleaning any antique potentially lowers its value, not because it alters it, but because the buyer is less sure of the real age of the item and therefore its harder to get top dollar. Clean it and they don't trust you, works for swords, works for guns. But, personally I don't feel like it hurts the authenticity of the rifle at all. If you care that much, when you want to resell it, re-coat it with Cosmo, throw some dirt on it and say its right out of the cave.

T



qvekid
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
492 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 12:58:08 AM
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i think your gun looks great,you can always get a stock for it in orginal condition at a gun show or internet because being a russian capture it is not numbers matching anyway,you have a fun shooter


HondoBlue
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
122 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 8:10:49 PM
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Youngblood,

Mucho thanks for the tip on Citristrip--- started today and the first go-'round got the top layer of Russian red off. More applications needed and I am working slowly with rubs of nylon pads. No stock markings popping up as yet.

Dave


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 02/05/2005 : 9:03:23 PM
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I'm glad to hear that it is working for you, Dave!

Kim




A-5
Gunboards Premium Member



148 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 12:48:18 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by fireman

Couple of things that I need to say. If I offended some by using the term "bubba" then I am sorry. I did not mean to offend any one with that. I used it because it is a term most of us are familiar with. If however I offended any one by stating that it is wrong to strip and refinish a milsurp rifle then I am not sorry. Anything that is done to a milsurp rifle after it has left military service is customizing, no other way to look at it.

Yougblood I agree it is good that this for the most part as remained civil. Let's keep it this way.

Gary42141, you are new around here and certainly welcome to comment. However 2 of your 3 posts on this thread have poked or slapped at many members here. In fact your first post is what got me to respond. I watched this thread go to nearly 40 replies on the joy of stripping and refinishing. As Todd said this thread started as request for input. We are giving ours.

Reichpapers, yes I think you can ruin an RC. They are what they are a legitimate WW2/cold war rifle. We are not soviet armouries. If we strip and refinsih a rifle or reblue, D&T for a fake sniper or whatever it is customizing.

Again your rifle your choice and I truly support that freedom but as has been said don't expect approval.



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Havent been around in awhile,but a very interesting subject indeed.Im not against stripping rifles that are in huge supply.Heck I've even done some mosins myself and they look great.Let me repeat,I am not against people stripping their rifles!
However,what fireman stated is completely true.When you take away any work that was done to the rifle in military service you are taking away from its historical and possibly monetary value.This is not my opinion,it is a fact of collecting.Right now it seems like no big deal because the rifles are available in huge quantities.But rest assure,years down the line the rifles that are original russian arsenal refinished will command a higher value.If any of you study collecting you will see this to be true.If you argue this point with a collector you will lose everytime.
Am i against refinishing?Not at all.But dont debate the fact that you are taking historical value away because the collector market will prove you wrong.All the way back to the 50's any surplus firearms that had changes made to them(some are very good changes)do not hold the value as their unmodified counterpart.This has been shown in the world of collecting for many years.Everyone should do what they like with their guns as long as they realize in the future it would probably detract from the value.This will not happen until the surplus market of a model dries up.
And for those of you that are wondering,my rc still has the russian finish on it.

Thanks,

Ray.


qvekid
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
492 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 11:49:03 PM
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if you have a russian capture gun and you do not like the way it looks strip that russian garbage off,i mean stain usr chemical stain remover no sanding,use steel wool and water to get every thing off the water will perk up the grain and use linseed oil,you will have a beatiful orginal looking stock then,good luck the qve kid


PATRON1
Gunboards Member



42 Posts
Posted - 02/13/2005 : 10:27:31 PM
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TO BUBBARIZE OR NOT TO BUBBARIZE THAT IS THE QUESTION WEATHER TO TAKE A RIFLE THAT HAS SEEN AND SHOWS THE STRUGGLES OF WAR AND RESTORE IT TO ITS ORIGINAL LUSTER OR YOUR INTERPITATION OFF, OR TO LEAVE IT WITH ITS SCARES OF HISTORY. TO TAKE A JAPANESE RIFLE THAT HAS BEEN PICED UP BY THE VICTOR AND KEEP ORIGINAL THAT IS KEEPING WITH HISTORY BUT TO TRY TO BRING BACK A RIFLE THAT WAS BUBBARIZED BY THE VICTORS THAT IS RESTORATION.


eman
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
227 Posts
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 10:01:36 AM
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Well i dont want to stir things up again but,excuse me ,RC k98s are dip blued barreled recievers with dipped parts from other rifles and ruined finish, beat up missmatched stocks.They are k98 "parts" not collector rifles and never will be.I would NEVER waste my money on one but to those that like and appreciate them more power to ya,thats more original matching rifles out there for me!I could buy 4 or 5 for the price of a nice collector rifle,but i wont because, they are ruined for me and anyway, i just dont have the room!As for messing with an RC k98,leave it alone if you ever plan on selling it.


FLAKPANZER
Gunboards Member



USA
62 Posts
Posted - 02/14/2005 : 3:04:58 PM
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I've got 4 RCs. One came to me with the red Russian shelac already removed, and I have used Acetone to remove the flaking shelac on the other three. After doing that, I followed another K98 collectore's advice by using Hoppe's #9 to LIGHTLY oil the stocks (which were very dry under the shelac) - the oil barely changes the color if at all.

On two of the rifles I removed the shelac from, I found Luftwaffe "L" WaAs which was a pleasant surprise - kind of like opening a package on Christmas morning (the other one I removed shelac from had a very clear set of WaAs on it, including a Luftwaffe "L", that could be seen even through the thick shelac.

I wouldn't want to re-finish the stocks with Tung Oil, or anything else that puts a sheen on them, but that wood under the Russian shelac is dried out so much that over time, the stocks will be damaged and could end up in pretty bad shape. Stripping the shelac and applying a non-colored oil actually preserves them better in my opinion.

Let's face it - the Russian Capture will eventually dry out as far as steady supply of inventory with most suppliers, but there are so many out there that I think the supplies through private sales and auction sights will still be readily available. All that said, the value may go up a bit in time, but as long as there are all-matching K98 vet- bringbacks out there, that is where the money will be.





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Edited by - FLAKPANZER on 02/20/2005 01:15:22 AM


Luso308
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 5:56:52 PM
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Well, after reading this entire thread I must be the prince of bubba!
What would you do if your rifle was dirty enough that your hands always got dirty from oil, grime, dust, rust and dirt?
Let them rust in peace?
There was an arqueologist that said that too much "scientific digging" of sites like those of WWI battles would only be a sofisticated way of stanting the obvious.
So, instead of letting "them" decompose I choose to make it more difficult.
- I blue!
- I sand!
- I oil the wood the tung and thinners!

And I stop rust and the rotting of wood.
But then I guess that american collectors have easy access to plenty and cheap supplies of rifles. I do no not and I take what I can and so...

Rust: I sand it of (oh my!) Use 400 grit sand paper to avoid shiny finish.

Blue: use NU-BLAK (german, excellent and the best cold blue ever - tried Birchwood Casey, Oxpho, Blue, G96 (?), Blue Wonder (yeah right) and a few others);

Stock: I only use tung (pure or with additives) and BLO (best protection with "aditivated tung", no mildew);

Stock gauges: cyanocrilate glue and saw dust, aplied over and over again to build up what is missing - and only when it makes a diference;

Stock sanding: 320 to 600 grit sand paper. Finish the stock with the 600 sand paper wet with tung oil. No visible sand marks. Clean stock
Cartouches saved, if any present. This finish actually has helped to reveal those markings and cartouches!

This is what I do.
No let it rip!


eman
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
227 Posts
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 7:54:57 PM
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Luso308,At least you admit being a bubba,I try not to buy rifles that NEED that much work.Cold blue stinks and looks like crap period.RCs are a part of history bubbaized by the russians and stored.Twice bubbaized in someones garage sure as hell wont help them out any.I agree with some,if you buy a rifle you can do what you damn well please with it,but dont expect everyone else to think its pretty .If you want to put all those man hours into destroying the value of your gun(if it had any to start with),thats great!I dont buy rusty rotten guns or RCs so no need for all that cold blue,,steel wool,sandpaper,elbow grease,tru oil etc.I go to a lot of gun shows(dumping ground for bubba restored guns) and see these guns all the time and they sell dirt cheap, if at all.


Luso308
Gunboards Member



65 Posts
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 06:28:21 AM
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If I had the choice that you americans do, I would also be more "conservative" but I consider myself lucky if I find rifle at all!
I won´t sell by bubbas anyway!


eman
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
227 Posts
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 09:11:05 AM
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I didnt know you were in a country that you couldnt get original nice collector rifles.Thats tough,i guess we in america have a choice about what to buy.In your case your doing the best you can,your refinished guns are probably valuable in your country since guns at all are hard to get.


Erma98k
Gunboards Member



USA
34 Posts
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 11:32:39 PM
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I first got my RC as a cheap shooter, and such, it needed to be useable. The Russian shellac does not hold up very well and after a few trips to the range, it was flaking off on my clothes and hands. I decided to remove the shellac and black paint, now my rifle is much nicer to handle and looks much better. The black paint was making the bolt rough, and was bubbling and coming off from just gun solvent during cleaning.

How do you guys who keep your Rc's 100% original even clean them after shooting? Bore solvent takes the black cruddy paint right off.

The BLO finish I put on looks very nice and actually protects/preserves the wood(unlike shellac, which only seals the wood on the outside)so that my RC stock might actually survive another 50+yrs and wind up on the gunshow table, while the shellac coated others dry out to driftwood and crumble from the grease/grime contamination found under the shellac. How the Russians refinished these rifles was not the ideal way to preserve a gun. It was just enough to make the rifles store long enough so they could be passed out to their commie friends/3rd worlders in a crisis.


hobbit
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
188 Posts
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 11:14:27 PM
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Nice job on the rifle stock Youngblood! How did you strip it to make it look so nice?


Youngblood
Platinum Bullet Club



USA
5962 Posts
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 11:43:58 PM
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The Eternal Topic ... <chuckle>

Hi, Hobbit ... Thanks! I used a stripper named Citristrip.



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When you are at the range or shooting
ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
** CETME and FR-8 Forum Expat **
Registered on Nov 23, 2001 12:07 pm
Total Classic Gunboards Posts: 1191
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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