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riflelou
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1 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 06:41:58 AM
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I recently purchased a German K98 rifle dated 1940. on the under side of the barrel it is stamped "8mm". The gun shop owner said it was safe and fun to shoot, and sold me a box of sellier and Bellot 8 x 57 JS cartridges. Is this the right ammunition for this gun? (I've heard other people talk about 7.9 as a size). The box of cartriges says "only for barrels with s - caliber bore 7,89, groove 8,20 mm)


bda
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
382 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 10:30:25 AM
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riflelou, 7.92 x 57mm is 8mm Mauser. Sometimes you'll see it as 8 x 57 too. Your K98 will have any of these combinations on it. Hope this helps.

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Bryan


alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 1:47:17 PM
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Curious as to whether any specific ammo was a no-no? For example, I just got an M-1 Garand for which the preferred ammo is military spec ball ammo. Ammo greater than 180 grains is not recommended as this can cause problems with the operating rod over time (according to the CMP handbook). Anything like this for 98K ammo?


Claven2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Canada
3468 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 1:51:21 PM
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With K98 ammo, all you have to worry about is that you don't shoot 8x57JS .321" diameter bullets though an 8x57J .318" bore. In other words, don't shoot the vastly more common JS ammo in a Gew88 unless you slugged the bore to determine if it's .318" or ,321".

BOTH types of ammo will be safe in a K98 which was designed for the .321" ammo, though the .318" ammo might not be as accurate.

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"Oppressors can tyranize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace" - James Madison



alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 3:39:52 PM
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Confused a bit. I'm not a 98K expert & haven't shot mine yet. Do I need to figure out what size bore I have? Or does that only apply if you've replaced the barrel? I got it from AIM, J.P. Sauer & Sohn, CE 1941. Would I have a .321 or .318 or would that be something I'd need to determine? Thanks.


tplan
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
834 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 5:23:59 PM
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alamo,
The .318 military rifles all date from before WWI. Your 1941 dated rifle should have a bore size stamped just in front of the receiver, 7.9, 7.91, something like that. It should take .323 ammo. there are several names for the same cartridge. The Germans always called it 7.9 x 57, collectors sometimes use the European/British designation 7.92 x 57, and US commercial ammo is called 8 x 57, or 8mm Mauser. The S & B stuff should work fine.

John


creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 5:25:43 PM
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from aim? order some 8mm turk from southern ohio gun. my 98's gobble it up. just make sure you scrub the bore with hot soapy water right after yopu are done shooting. as it is highly corrosive. have fun.


zampilot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3991 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 6:58:52 PM
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Alamo: "Anything like this for 98K ammo?"
--the great thing about bolt actions like the K98k is...like Mikey, "they'll eat anything" that is made for them. Careful there! With a disclaimer of commercial or milsurp ammo of course.

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I'd like a Riihimaki M/28-30, just to round things out!
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket1.html


alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2004 : 10:47:30 PM
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Yep, 7.9 in front of the receiver. Thanks for the info. Will hopefully get a chance to shoot soon.


Fightin Scot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
4002 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 01:21:08 AM
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If you want some nice ammo, try to contact a board member named Louie. He sells his stuff on the trader as well as auctionarms.com and gunbroker.com. I have bought from him 4 times now and everytime he has taken care of me. He specializes in the WW2 German ammo in the original boxes. It is sure fire, and some of the rounds actually look newer than some of the commercial ammo I have bought. Although some were made in the mid 30's.

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alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 11:50:09 AM
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That's pretty neat, original ammo. I would assume it's corrosive & proper cleaning measures would apply. I have some WWII German 9MM in the original box that my Grandfather brought back with a Luger.


tm45
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1086 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 3:02:55 PM
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Yes, best to assume that any of the WWII or earlier (8 x 57)has corrosive primers. Also same for the 50's and 70's Yugo as far as I have read. Clean accordingly.
If you happen to run onto some 8 x 57 IS made by Igman, that is supposed to be the same as 8 x 57 JS. I have read that IS was the original German designation, JS is supposed to be a translation thing.
(Cyrillic to Roman or 'English' letters, something like that.) Modern Igman is non-corrosive.
Many suggest that you avoid (older) steel cartridges, they can rust from the inside out. It's weakened, but you can't see it.
Personally, I would avoid any of the Turk stuff myself. Have read too many posts about 'Hot' loads, and split cases. Expecially the 1947 stuff. Some shooters take it apart and use in other cases.
HTH, Tm


Claven2
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Canada
3468 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2004 : 5:36:02 PM
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For reference, this is the Igman stuff he's talking about. Consistency isn't as good as Remchester stuff, but the brass seems to be a decent basis for reloading. It's also WAY better than any milsurp ammo I've tried.



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"Oppressors can tyranize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace" - James Madison



Spider
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



Austria
906 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 09:24:53 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by tm45

.
If you happen to run onto some 8 x 57 IS made by Igman, that is supposed to be the same as 8 x 57 JS. I have read that IS was the original German designation, JS is supposed to be a translation thing.
(Cyrillic to Roman or 'English' letters, something like that.) Modern Igman is non-corrosive.

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Yes it's a difference in Typo an "I" in Capitals could also be written in a way that it looks like a "J". In handwriting you could see the difference as a J had an uderline whereas an that rsembled a J had none. So IS=JS in that aspect

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A life in fear is a life half lived


alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 2:23:53 PM
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Here's another chance to show my ignorance. I'm very familiar with handguns but know nothing about rifles.

1) Stripper clips - are they needed? or can you load without them? Even if not needed, where can you get them? I'd like to have some.

2) Headspace - should I have this checked before shooting?

Anything else to check before shooting it?

Thanks.




tm45
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1086 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 2:42:11 PM
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Al,
1) Clips not really needed. It's easy to simply load the Mag. by hand from the top. (I don't think it cares if they touch the front or back side of the Mag.)
I see clips cheap at gun shows. There are brass and tin looking versions. Someone else can tell you which ones they like better. Folks who shoot a lot of rounds like them for speed loading.

Edited for correction:
Yes, in your case, I must agree with others who say you should have the 'head spacing' checked.
(Bad mistake on my part. I confused your info with the rifle that had been purchased directly from a local dealer.) Tm

By the way, if you measure the correct 8mm bullet with a caliper, at the point where it enters the cartridge, it should read .323" dia. plus or minus about .0003 or so.
That 7,9 (metric) on the barrel corresponds to the .311xx" dimension across the face of the lans. The groves are deeper, and accept the .323" bullet.
HTH, Tm

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Edited by - tm45 on 10/24/2004 11:08:25 AM


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:02:04 PM
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Several things.
Don't load a single round into the chamber like you would a .22 bolt action.YOU MUST load the round into the mag,so the bolt picks it up,and slides it into the chamber.DO NOT PUT THE SINGLE ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER WITH YOUR FINGERS AND THEN TRY TO CLOSE THE BOLT.Put it into the magazine.
Do not clean with hot soapy water;not required !Use water with a little ammonia in it,or Windex.Then clean bore with Hoppes
Turk ammo is hot! Some of it is VERY inaccurate.Some of it is OK,but still "hot".Pass on it unless cost is a deciding factor.
Yes,you should have the headspace checked before you fire the gun.Good luck.


tplan
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
834 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:12:46 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Parrish


Do not clean with hot soapy water;not required !

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Talk about dogma! That's a bit excessive. I've watched the threads on these boards about cleaning, and all these will work, more or less. It's no harder to use hot, soapy water than ammonia. I don't think a prohibitive statement like that is required, personally.
Alamo, do use post-corrosive cleaning methods, of your choice. Do dry the bore before using your solvent and oil afterwards. Do get the headspace checked. Do enjoy shooting the rifle.

John


alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:53:01 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by alamo

I got it from AIM, J.P. Sauer & Sohn, CE 1941.
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I posted that tm45. I got it from AIM so no local dealer involved. I will have the headspace checked by someone in the local area before shooting. In thinking about it now, it's probably not a good idea to trust that the Russians checked that for me 50 or so years ago.

Thanks for the tip Paul. That would have been my instinct - to load it properly from the magazine (from learning that the hard way with handguns) but when you deal with something new (rifles - to me) you can often get brainlocked.

Will look for some stripper clips at the next gunshow so I can do it like I saw on "Tales of the Gun" - Guns of Mauser episode the other week!




tm45
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1086 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 11:30:12 AM
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Alamo,
Bad error on my part! I scrolled up and picked up on “the gun shop owner” from the original post by ‘Riflelou’. My answer was NOT appropriate for your particular rifle. Please accept my apologies.
Not good to make an error like that when discussing safety features. I’m glad you and others picked up on it. Tm





creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 11:36:47 AM
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hey, don't buy any stripper clips at the gun show. sometimes the yugo ammo comes with the clips. when you order ammo, ask for the description it will tell you. however, the turk ammo has clips but all the ones ive had seem to be really loose and dont seem to work very well.

paul what are you talking about when you say the turk ammo is "hot"?


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 12:32:49 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by creepiE

hey, don't buy any stripper clips at the gun show. sometimes the yugo ammo comes with the clips. when you order ammo, ask for the description it will tell you. however, the turk ammo has clips but all the ones ive had seem to be really loose and dont seem to work very well.

paul what are you talking about when you say the turk ammo is "hot"?

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Sorry;I did not make that clear.By "hot" I mean excessive pressure.I'm not saying it's dangerous,although there are a few that say it is dangerous.I've shot it,and infact,I have about 70 rds left that I will eventually shoot.While some lots/years seem to be accurate,for the most part I have found the Turk to be VERY inaccurate.This inaccuracy,coupled with corrosive primers,coupled with excessive pressure,coupled with some of it being very dirty and damaged(bullets falling out,dents in cases,corrosion on the outside of the case)causes me to stay away from it.I'm not a fan of Turk ammo ! Having said that,there are people that have had very good luck with it.


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 12:47:46 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by tplan


quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Parrish


Do not clean with hot soapy water;not required !

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Talk about dogma! That's a bit excessive. I've watched the threads on these boards about cleaning, and all these will work, more or less. It's no harder to use hot, soapy water than ammonia. I don't think a prohibitive statement like that is required, personally.
Alamo, do use post-corrosive cleaning methods, of your choice. Do dry the bore before using your solvent and oil afterwards. Do get the headspace checked. Do enjoy shooting the rifle.

John

Its easy to offend....apparently ? That was not my intent.I'll try to say this another way.One part ammonia to about 4 parts(5,6) is all you need to clean bores with after shooting corrosive ammo.Mix it up;put it in a bottle;take it to the range;when done,swab the bore with the ammonia water.Dry the bore with a dry patch.When you get home,clean the bore with your solvent of choice.Done.Much less work,it seems to me,than using hot soapy water.I'll add this,and again,I'm not trying to offend.There is WAY too much B.S. out there regarding proper cleaning methods and today's super-dupper solvents.This ain't brain surgery.I think a lot of guys are over cleaning their arms,and in so doing,doing more harm than good.Ammonia water is all that is needed,and Hoppes #9 does as good a job as the supposed "hi-tech" stuff that cost three times more.What has a better track record than Hoppes #9 ? Talk about a proven product! At any rate,hot soapy water or ammonia water,your choice.

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creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 1:13:11 PM
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thanks for the info paul. yeah you take a crapshoot with the turk (thats puting it lightly). i mainly buy it because its cheap. have a good day


Rev. Two Bands
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1022 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 2:39:17 PM
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In a K98k the Turk ammo really never should cause a problem. The rifle is designed to handle such with aplomb. It is in semi-auto rifles that erratical pressure, and esp. pressure on the high/hot side, will cause problems, and it is there that we have had a good number of reports. As for head-space I suggest you fire a few rounds in a brass case and check out the cases for any unusual signs.The worst to expect is a so-called head-separation, which - again - the action actually is designed to handle. On the whole you will find the K98k really much more robust and tolerant than any handgun.


creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 7:29:22 PM
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hey great. just got back from the range earlier. saw galaxieman out there with his carcano. he saved the last round for me (what a guy!)shot a lot of turk ammo in my 98k, and had good luck with it. although galaxieman had a bad round turn all black on him. other than that it was a good day at the range.


tplan
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
834 Posts
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 01:00:32 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Paul Parrish


quote:
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Originally posted by tplan

Originally posted by Paul Parrish
Its easy to offend....apparently ? That was not my intent.I'll try to say this another way.One part ammonia to about 4 parts(5,6) is all you need to clean bores with after shooting corrosive ammo.Mix it up;put it in a bottle;take it to the range;when done,swab the bore with the ammonia water.Dry the bore with a dry patch.When you get home,clean the bore with your solvent of choice.Done.Much less work,it seems to me,than using hot soapy water.I'll add this,and again,I'm not trying to offend.There is WAY too much B.S. out there regarding proper cleaning methods and today's super-dupper solvents.This ain't brain surgery.I think a lot of guys are over cleaning their arms,and in so doing,doing more harm than good.Ammonia water is all that is needed,and Hoppes #9 does as good a job as the supposed "hi-tech" stuff that cost three times more.What has a better track record than Hoppes #9 ? Talk about a proven product! At any rate,hot soapy water or ammonia water,your choice.

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Paul,
You don't offend, you just sound so adamant. I couldn't agree more with most of the above, ie-solvents, overcleaning, not brain surgery. Simple is best. Soap & water has always seemed simple to me. I'm sure your ammonia method works well. You're not the only voice I hear touting it. You just make anything, including old soap& water, sound like it's going to dissolve the piece! Shades of meaning tend to get lost in email & message groups. I sometimes think they are actually setting communcation back by decades. Go forth and spread the good word, by all means. Just try not to sound like those pushing the super-duper solvents while doing it. May we all have clean bores.

John


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 4:13:10 PM
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tplan,I'm too tired to fight,and besides,I think you're right about the ability to be misunderstood using this medium.At any rate,I will try and be less assertive in the future.Take care.


creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 10/29/2004 : 8:28:13 PM
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today i was shooting 8mm turk 1942, greek 1939, and yugo vintage 1956. it was about 4pm cst. somewhat overcast. when i shot the turk i would see a flash come out of the end of the barrel when fired. on the other ammo i would see nothing. hey paul, is this because the ammo is "hot" as you explained? or was i not blinking when firing the turk and blinking when firing greek and yugo??? i usually expect to see a good flash when it is dusk, but it was not that overcast.


Paul Parrish
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
848 Posts
Posted - 10/30/2004 : 05:56:55 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by creepiE

today i was shooting 8mm turk 1942, greek 1939, and yugo vintage 1956. it was about 4pm cst. somewhat overcast. when i shot the turk i would see a flash come out of the end of the barrel when fired. on the other ammo i would see nothing. hey paul, is this because the ammo is "hot" as you explained? or was i not blinking when firing the turk and blinking when firing greek and yugo??? i usually expect to see a good flash when it is dusk, but it was not that overcast.

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The difference is in the powders used ;nothing to do with chamber pressure.Depending on the barrel length,some powders do not completly burn inside the barrel.A lot of guys who shoot M44 Mosins will attest to that.Also,as a rule,commercial ammo burn cleaner,and quicker,than older milsurp.


creepiE
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1768 Posts
Posted - 10/30/2004 : 8:32:05 PM
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thanks for the info. the mosins do look like a flamethrower!


dawgbait
Gunboards Member



USA
57 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2004 : 04:34:27 AM
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If your looking for some good non corosive ammo, i tested out 2 diffrent manufacturs. I tryed out Remington 8mm and Mitchell's Mauser 8mm FMJ. The Remington ammo sucks. it wouldnt load into the chamber rightif i had more than 1 shell in the internal mag. The Mitchells Muaser shells were perfet. with the mitchell's mauser shells i was getting a grouping of ~1" at 100 yards with iron sights. I gotta try out some winchester 8mm mauser ammo out yet. I will post about them soon as i can.


Ross



AZshooter
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



South Sandwich Islands
7545 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2004 : 08:34:34 AM
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If you can still find it, Turkish ammo made in the mid 30's to early 40's is actually good stuff. 1939 is my favorite year for accuracy. I've found nothing better for accuracy in my 98/22 or K.Kales. The earlier production year Turk ammo also comes packed on 2 piece stripper clips, which work fine. You often see them for about 50¢ each at gun shows - this is a ripoff, since the market should be swimming in cheap Turkish clips for about 5¢ each. The later 40's production years Turk ammo comes on the 1 piece strippers that are pure crap, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

8mm & Strippers:
92.23 KB
Lt to Rt: 1939 P635 ammo & strippers; 1939 Turkish w/ 2 pc. strippers. Underside shows retaining spring running length of stripper; far Rt: the ubiquitious crappy one-piece Turkish stripper - no spring gives loose, sloppy cartridge fit & often crappy feed.

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And, Yes I AM Master of the Gunboards. Connie said so himself.




alamo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
413 Posts
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 6:55:25 PM
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Thanks to tm45, Paul Parrish and tplan. Had the headspace on my 98K checked by a gunsmith. Also told him to check for any unsafe conditions. Everything looks fine.


hobbit
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
188 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 12:35:12 AM
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Paul Parrish
When you stated "DO NOT PUT THE SINGLE ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER WITH YOUR FINGERS AND THEN TRY TO CLOSE THE BOLT." Did you mean that it might not eject the shell propertly if you don't?


dawgbait
Gunboards Member



USA
57 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 12:47:18 AM
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You will break the extracter thats on the bolt.. Its a major NO NO. just put the shell into the internal mag.

For anyone that wants to know how all makes non corsive ammo let me know i have a list that i think is all complete. It also has the bullet type and grains. and where you can get them.

Ross


Fingolfin
Gunboards Member



69 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2004 : 11:19:27 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by dawgbait

For anyone that wants to know how all makes non corsive ammo let me know i have a list that i think is all complete. It also has the bullet type and grains. and where you can get them.

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I would like to see the list, thanks. I've only shot new Federal(read: expensive) ammo, but it worked fine. Got a handful of that Ecuador '50s stuff, anybody shot it? I'm uneasy about corrosive, but not much to do if you want cheap ammo and don't reload.

I never checked headspace on my 98k, seems like that wouldn't be too easy to do unless a local 'smith just happened to have a set of gauges, or everybody who buys a 98k is going to also buy a set of gauges(not).


Jimbeaux
Gunboards Premium Member



187 Posts
Posted - 12/13/2004 : 11:27:15 PM
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The hottest surplus I've ever used was German WW2 stuff. It kicked like a mule and I had to beat on my bolt to open it on the first round. Yep--I had to pop a second round and stick the bolt again to figure out the ammo was way too hot. Have been lucky with all Turk ammo so far.


AZshooter
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



South Sandwich Islands
7545 Posts
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 01:10:03 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by hobbit

Paul Parrish
When you stated "DO NOT PUT THE SINGLE ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER WITH YOUR FINGERS AND THEN TRY TO CLOSE THE BOLT." Did you mean that it might not eject the shell propertly if you don't?

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Snap a dummy round into the magagine, then slowly push the bolt forward. You will notice that while the boltface is pushing the cartridge forward out of the magazine, the case rim will ride up and under the extractor hook. The round will then feed into the chamber and the bolt will lock.

If you just lay a round on top of the mag, then try to push it in with the bolt, the extractor will not snap over the case rim and you will not be able to lock up the action to fire. Push hard enough and you may damage or break the extractor.

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And, Yes I AM Master of the Gunboards. Connie said so himself.




SteveinCT
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1483 Posts
Posted - 12/15/2004 : 05:58:55 AM
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Re: Turk ammo... I agree it is very hot, very inconsistent, and wildly
inaccurate. I don't intend to shoot any more of mine (and I have about 1,400 rds of it!)

No exaggeration from my five Mausers: two RC K98s a, Yugo 48, a Yugo 48-A and a Yugo crest K98....the Turk ammo won't even chamber 5% of the time! They are too long for the chamber I've learned. Fully 5 out
of every 100 rds the bolt handle CANNOT be closed - so I don't force it. I've even tried trying rounds in neighboring shooters' K98s. Same
problem. You can't get a group worth measuring since one round may
be hotter than another and your group is a vertical string with three
different impact "clusters" about one foot in dispersion at 100 yards.

Switching to S&B ammo, the Yugo 1980s milsurp or the steel cased Romanian milsurp from the 70s yielded excellent accuracy (although they all shoot high), smooth operation, no misfires and consistent
comfortable shooting.
 
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