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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
CaesarOctavio
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2559 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 3:56:36 PM
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My wife explained how this is done and it's not perfect but I think it came out alright. I don't have any "full shots" of the rifle yet because I couldn't get any to come out clearly. Some of these pics might look a little fuzzy on the edges but that is because I had to shrink them a BUNCH before I could get them to a size that would be acceptable here. Let me know what you think.



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That last one isn't very clear but I wanted to show off the beautiful red highlights in the grain. The rifle is not shiny and shows many dings and bangs from it's age so any "shiny" edges in the pics are stickly from the camera/sunlight when I took the pics outside. The stock might be a replacement but it has the serial number of the rifle on it, as one pic shows, and the rifle is all matching in every other regard. I hope you all enjoy and if anyone has any insights it would be much appreciated.

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"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."
Ronald Reagan



madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
889 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 4:30:46 PM
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You have a Waffenfabrik USA special. Renumbered (at least) on the wood, bolt body, floorplate, and triggerguard. Cupped buttplate is not correct and original to any 39 manufactured 98k. Blue is not original either in my opinion. Hopefully you did not pay very much for this rifle.


Mike442
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
473 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 4:46:37 PM
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Hi Caesar,

Nice job on the photos and a very nice looking rifle. Price is relative and if it isn't worth what you paid for it today, it will be one day. If your happy with it, that's what really counts. Looks great to me. Enjoy and congrats!


vaughn99
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



602 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 4:46:48 PM
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i completely agree safety is wrong buttplate is wrong stock is wrong. renumbered on triggerguard, floorplate, bolt body, stock, and bolt shrould,. and 100% reblued 200.00 rifle no more. all parts should be covered in WaA and not a trace of 1 very fishy!!!!!!

vaughn


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 5:09:59 PM
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What Madboy said. The parts are ruined as they've been ground down, renumbered, and reblued. It's a shooter (have it checked out by a gunsmith first) or reenactor at best. If it was advertised or sold as "matching" and you paid a premium (i.e. more than $200), you need to get a refund ASAP. A standard unjacked with Russian refurb would hold its value better. Sorry to bear such news.


quote:
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Originally posted by madboy357

You have a Waffenfabrik USA special. Renumbered (at least) on the wood, bolt body, floorplate, and triggerguard. Cupped buttplate is not correct and original to any 39 manufactured 98k. Blue is not original either in my opinion. Hopefully you did not pay very much for this rifle.

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Edited by - Hambone on 07/25/2005 6:12:41 PM


graf
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1294 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 5:23:30 PM
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Hey bub; I have backbone right cheer & on page 756 paragraph 7 it has this very rifle described to a tee; apparently German field armorers went into battle carrying spare parts and when a dude got hit by a pinko antitank gun that same armorer would sneak in under arty fire and replace the old parts with new parts, scrub & re-number (bolts, stocks & tg/fp especially) then hand it to the next guy in line...
See it all the time & it's a fact these same armorers were within feet of the battle zone, tinkering & scrapping rifles together; renumbering you name it- hell can't go to a gun show anymore without seeing plenty of their handy work, never seen a m/m rifle before that wasn’t German done; now you see these snooty purist collectors that keep rehashing that things such as original unboinkered rifles follow patterns & that reworks do as well, that if things look wrong or not in a fairly narrow range of known variation that one should have a healthy dose of caution but hey I say anything is possible and if you can’t prove something is fake with video of the dude who did it then just keep your lap shut!



quote:
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Originally posted by madboy357

You have a Waffenfabrik USA special. Renumbered (at least) on the wood, bolt body, floorplate, and triggerguard. Cupped buttplate is not correct and original to any 39 manufactured 98k. Blue is not original either in my opinion. Hopefully you did not pay very much for this rifle.

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Editor Military Rifle Journal - Eventual website:
http://militaryriflejournal.com/

http://gewehr98.com/



mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 5:44:19 PM
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Graf- your description of actual event is scary- it is so close to what actually happened during the war you must be clairvoyant'

Recent diggings in Russian have uncovered vast inventories of parts, grinders, dies, number stamps, and sometimes heavily sanded and shellaced wood- these units were known as "Waffenamt Grenadier" and were busy on all fronts during the war. Sometimes, these units did custom work on pistols, such as Ivory Grips and Nickel Plating.

Now- back to reality- if you paid more than $200.00 you got ripped off- tell us who screwed you over by telling you this was all matching so we can avoid them in the future.

If you paid around $200, then you got a really good deal on a complete, renumbered rifle- hopefully it shoots good.

FYI- I got hosed on my first Mauser I ever bought- I paid $200.00 for a Yugo rework- that was 1991- still waiting for the prices to catch up before I shoot the bore out of it......

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com


madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
889 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 5:54:21 PM
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Sorry graf, but I cannot find page 756 in my edition? You must have the special large-text edition for aging eyes....or maybe I didn't know the secret handshake to aquire the 'member's only' copy.

And here I thought matching serials weren't paramount to a functional rifle----I would have thought the Germans would have scrapped anything m/m and just made more! (Just like they did in the Great War!). But I have heard enough about these WaA grenadiers, so the stories must be true (great call on that name farb, reminded me of HH's special engraved Luger that was posted on WA awhile back).

Caesar, where are you located? Some states seem to be more of a source for these humpers than others. You should do as Hambone says and seek out the chap that sold you this rifle. If he refuses to refund your hard earned money, you should crack that lovely laminate stock over his head...


CaesarOctavio
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2559 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:01:13 PM
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Thanks for the info. I'm a little pissed because I didn't pay $200 or less for it I still have the receipt though. I have bought several rifles from the dealer I got this one from before and never had a problem with originality etc. The rifle is pretty and I am still going to do the tire tied to the tree test fire on it a few times before I decide if I want to keep it. Since I have dealt with the dealer in the past and never had a problem or dishonesty from him on anything I am wondering if he even had a clue what he had. I am not one of those crazy purists in the sense that I have to have a perfect rifle in every way, including condition, but I like to think of myself as someone who collects as nice of condition as I can afford.

Something about this rifle stood out to me at the time I purchased it, you guys know that "call" you get sometimes at a show or when you hold a particular rifle. I know it won't be the last Mauser I get so part of me is inclined to just keep it and have fun with it, if the tire test proves it is okay of course, and part of me is a little pissed lol Thanks for the info though everyone it's nice to have people around who know about this kind of stuff. Is there anywhere online I can get info about this kind of rework?

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"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."
Ronald Reagan




mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:10:43 PM
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You are already on the best place on the internet to discover fraud and humping of rifles.

Of course, a hands on inspection is always best, but in this case, even the first time photos give all the secrets away.....

GOOD LUCK MY FRIEND!

Maybe you should contact the dealer anyway- even if you decide to keep it. Let him know how you feel- maybe he will refund part of your purchase price, especially if he jacked the price up thinking it was real (maybe he is honest, and bought it cheap- thinking he was going to make bank-- not a dishonest thing to make money).

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com

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Edited by - mrfarb on 07/25/2005 6:11:35 PM


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:22:58 PM
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CO, that "kind of rework" is of the humped up kind (i.e. recent dremel tool and die stamp job). They range from pretty bad to pretty good, all being detectible, some requiring a loop and/or good light. The problem (as Graf aptly noted) is this certain creeping mentality of "prove it is fake". The emphasis and test actually is and should remain "prove it isn't a fake". Either your dealer put one on you or he should never be trusted to authenticate another "matching" Kar.98k (or any other German rifle for that matter) as he is truly daft on the subject. While there are a few with copies of BOTW who think they know more than they do, there are also very knowledgeable guys here who will help you. I'd make that dealer take that thing back if you are into it much more than $200. Good hunting,
HB


quote:
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Originally posted by CaesarOctavio

Thanks for the info. I'm a little pissed because I didn't pay $200 or less for it I still have the receipt though. I have bought several rifles from the dealer I got this one from before and never had a problem with originality etc. The rifle is pretty and I am still going to do the tire tied to the tree test fire on it a few times before I decide if I want to keep it. Since I have dealt with the dealer in the past and never had a problem or dishonesty from him on anything I am wondering if he even had a clue what he had. I am not one of those crazy purists in the sense that I have to have a perfect rifle in every way, including condition, but I like to think of myself as someone who collects as nice of condition as I can afford.

Something about this rifle stood out to me at the time I purchased it, you guys know that "call" you get sometimes at a show or when you hold a particular rifle. I know it won't be the last Mauser I get so part of me is inclined to just keep it and have fun with it, if the tire test proves it is okay of course, and part of me is a little pissed lol Thanks for the info though everyone it's nice to have people around who know about this kind of stuff. Is there anywhere online I can get info about this kind of rework?

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Bob in OHIO
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1119 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:25:30 PM
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I was getting ready to respond to the pics, stepped away and ate dinner, and came back to all of the above bad news. The above illustrates a basic lesson and the reality of a learning curve that we all go through.

When someone says all matching and unmessed with wood... you gotta know what that really means... otherwide the seller uses his biggest screwdriver on the buyer.

The 3 keys to buying K98s today are: experience, expereince, and 'xperiance. Either take it with you in a friend, post the pics before a purchase, or have the info in your head. My motto is "Know more about the gun than the seller".

Also, know the seller. I do OK... but there are some real tools at gunshows who know way more than me and I don't take a chance with their stuff. They have a really bad rap and always have matched guns 4 sale...Hmmm.

I strongly recommend that you DO get pissed-off. Then, Go get your funds back...



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My CD full of K98 pics... http://bobinohio.com/

[email protected]

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Edited by - Bob in OHIO on 07/25/2005 6:28:18 PM


madboy357
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
889 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:33:21 PM
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Caesar, I applaud you in taking this sad information in stride. Some fellows in your situation would be well into explaining why it is right and conjuring up scenarios much like the one graf put forth so well, all trying to stave off the inevitable. Sorry you had to learn the hard way, but next time you go after a 98k, you will be armed with much better knowledge.

As per your question about it being a possible German rework (on the Collector forum), as well as asking about info on this kind of rework: This is an attempt by unsavory peoples here in the US, and is nothing more than turning a pig's ear into a silk purse in the pursuit of the almighty Dead President. Simple mathmatics at work, take a 200 dollar RC and some Sear's dies, and make a 1k matching gun over several hours of time and a few beers, all the while making up a seductive tale of their great-grand-daddy's war experience.


graf
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1294 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:45:49 PM
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Secret "handjob" would be more like it- but your right, you caught me... making fun of backbone again... though it would of had 756 pages if it ever had an errata sheet.

Nothing personal and I understand that new guys get hammered on these all the time; but all one need do is go back a couple pages on this forum to see the garbage espoused as facts- not terribly different than what I put forth above; you see it all the time where "it could be" or guy's with no knowledge at all making posts that are out right wrong or at best bad information.
Not 6 months ago a few burger flippers put forth much as I made above and one actually had the audacity to say his uncle or father was one of the WaA Grenadiers who just slapped rifles together and had no worries over marking such rifles- he just slapped in m/m salvaged bolts (so consequently any m/m rifle could be German armorer done?) then you had a parade of McDonald grill masters cheering him on; I mean really is there any wonder guys get it up the rear on rifles when such bad information abounds?



quote:
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Originally posted by madboy357

Sorry graf, but I cannot find page 756 in my edition? You must have the special large-text edition for aging eyes....or maybe I didn't know the secret handshake to aquire the 'member's only' copy.

And here I thought matching serials weren't paramount to a functional rifle----I would have thought the Germans would have scrapped anything m/m and just made more! (Just like they did in the Great War!). But I have heard enough about these WaA grenadiers, so the stories must be true (great call on that name farb, reminded me of HH's special engraved Luger that was posted on WA awhile back).

Caesar, where are you located? Some states seem to be more of a source for these humpers than others. You should do as Hambone says and seek out the chap that sold you this rifle. If he refuses to refund your hard earned money, you should crack that lovely laminate stock over his head...

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Editor Military Rifle Journal - Eventual website:
http://militaryriflejournal.com/

http://gewehr98.com/



gunguy98
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
306 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:47:30 PM
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I'm sorry to hear you got burned, it's a shame.You deffinately have to be carefull. There is a guy right now on GunBroker selling a " 100% all matching bringback k98k" and if you look at the bolt you can easily tell that it's scrubbed and renumbered....whoever ends up buying it is getting screwed.


tsellati
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1964 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 6:52:32 PM
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CO,

Given your past good dealings with this dealer it is entirely possible that he himself was unaware this is a "humped" rifle. If you went back to him, perhaps he would refund a reasonable portion of your money or give you full credit towards some other future purchase. If he values you as a customer he may think twice before leaving you with bad feelings regarding the rifle in question.

Good luck,

Tim

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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf".

--George Orwell--


CaesarOctavio
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2559 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 7:06:07 PM
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Thanks for the support guys and there is no need to get upset or freak out until I'm told, "Sorry no refunds." Then I will have to get very upset very fast with someone lol I paid enough for what I thought was real so as far as I'm concerned I want to either get enough back to make it the $200 it's worth or a rifle that's real or all of my money back. I have bought several rifles from him before with no problems which I think will give me an edge on this but I am taking down all the info you guys pointed out that was wrong with this rifle and I'm going to have a list ready to read off to him on the phone when I call tomorrow. Thanks again everyone for the help, I will now be much more careful when hunting for the more German aspect of military surplus in the future

As for cracking the rifle over his head, I'm in here VA and if you buy a rifle and something isn't right within a week there are certain laws that are on your side I will sort this out and let you all know whats up.

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"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."
Ronald Reagan




generaladolfgalland
Gunboards Member



91 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 11:07:54 PM
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Most gunsmiths I've encountered are not historians and can be rather clueless when it comes to battle rifles, foreign battle rifles more so. I've run into gunsmiths that are rabidly pro-american and have a disdain for German made arms, even though the Mauser bolt action is the basis for all bolt actions today. Most are just used to working with Remingtons/Winchesters/Mossbergs and the like and arent really the type to be interested in military history. The gun business isnt squeaky clean either. My gunsmith is always trying to pull a fast one on me, and then says he gave me a great deal.


CaesarOctavio
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2559 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 07:40:07 AM
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I am going to call up the dealer later today after I get some errands done but I was curious as to how I should go about explaining how I found out this rifle wasn't the real deal. I suspect he had no clue about it himself and thought it was legit. I am going to explain how I posted it on Gunboards and people who are far more skilled than I at reading these rifles ALL told me how it wasn't real etc. Anything else I should say/do when I talk to him? I am treating this as a non-huge situation until I have reason to get upset about things and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt as long as I have reason too. Any help as to what to say or not say would be much appreciated. And thanks again everyone for taking time to read over this and offer free advice and the gift of your knowledge to someone who is just getting started on the "Mauser" aspect of milsurps.

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"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."
Ronald Reagan




Todd A
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
370 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 09:49:51 AM
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Show him the rough ground spots where the original numbers were removed.

Explain to him how the floorplate and trigger guard WOULD have waffenampts on them.This is a German codes link,

http://users.swing.be/sw017995/german-codes.htm

It will show you (and him) which WaA's would be on your rifle if it were legit.

Hopefully he will take your word on it after you give him a crash course on how a Kar98k should be marked.


Have you stripped down the rifle?It is a long shot but the original serial number might still be in the barrel channel(and the inside of the handguard)and the stock date code might still be under the butplate,to show the stock is well after'39. But given the lengths the faker went to renumber,those telltale signs were quite likely removed.

If he still trys to say it is a German rebuild,tell him there are no rebuild stamps on it,Ku or Su on the wrist of the stock(I am going on memory here so I'm not sure about the Su marks being proved as a rebuild marking).

Now there is still some debate on rebuild marks and depot rebuilt K98ks (as graf pointed out in his previous humourous post), but for your purpose it doesn't matter. Nothing on your rifle points to a German rebuild ,unless bubba is a German National praticing his skills in the US.

Good luck,and I hope your dealer is just a mistaken but honorable man.



CaesarOctavio
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
2559 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 12:30:24 PM
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Thanks for the info Todd, I copied and pasted it to Word and printed it out so when I'm on the phone with him I can quickly go to it. Thanks again for all the help everyone I'm hoping this can be resolved quickly and quietly.

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"You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."
Ronald Reagan




Red9
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1033 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:38:30 PM
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Caesar,
Don't feel bad, if you are happy then go with it. It looks nice and should be a fine shooter. Just chalk it up to experience. I recently followed an auction on a G33/40 advertised as 'original perfect' bluing and 'original' condition, brought back by super GI Joe who fought off 20 crack SS Infantry Divisions(you get the story). It sold for over $700! It was reblued, the bolt was m/m and was even the wrong type. The stock had been excessively cleaned.


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 11:28:11 PM
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Do like I do when some carnival barker is talking smack. Wait until you have a nice audience then offer to wager a grand that the rifle is a cobbed up POS. Loser pays authentication fees and postage. I've never yet had one back their smack.

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INFANTRY
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
790 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 02:27:49 AM
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CaesarOctavio, Looks like your a Military man, A rifle issued in 1939 and 6 years later in 1945 still mint? Hell no! I have had many parts on my issued weapons replaced! Extractors, hand guards, 203 tubes, springs, barrels. You know the deal. Yes German armorers did renumber their work when able. Where all the number and letter stamp set exactly the same? Probably not. Are there fakes out on the market? Hell yes, but its not like there is a sweat shop set up and they are pumping fakes out buy the hundreds.

Graf, Thank you for saying something about the new guy always getting ripped about his toys.

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To the last man! 2-135 INFANTRY


Spitzenmeister
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
572 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 02:42:29 AM
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Caesar, make a printout of the image below and take it to your dealer. It’s a trick I learned from the outstanding moderator of the Luger Forum, John Sabato, who used to take a photo and simply invert the image, to help see suspicious marks.

The Bubba who made this abomination used a different font size (one or two points bigger) for the 6 and 9 on the right. And someone correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t that look like a circular-like grind mark showing through the re-bluing under the left one?



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"Nations do not mistrust each other because they are armed, they are armed because they mistrust each other." - Ronald Reagan


TANKERFRANK
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1653 Posts
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 5:50:45 PM
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CaesarOctavio

so what ever happen, did you get your money back?

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