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david in germany
Gunboards Member



15 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 03:39:44 AM
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http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=307025

I just find this sad.
David

gospodin
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
486 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 10:11:48 AM
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If the "new" Kar98k's are ,in some way, identified as rebuilt,so that the collector is less likely to be fooled, then I don't have much of a problem with this. Experience and pessimism indicate that these rifles will not be so identified,especially upon passing to second,third etc. owners. Just something more to be aware of when buying a Kar98k.


bearbaregun
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
333 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 12:44:23 PM
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I don't understand why if someone sells a fake Rolex or forged painting and is found out they can be charged with a crime of some sort; fraud, theft or some such charge but it seems that people are actively engaging in wholesale fraud like making a $1000+ gun out of a $150 gun, adding nothing to it but deception, and they are at best coerced to refund.


Dave Davis
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
179 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 1:23:43 PM
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The key is the marketing technique they will employ. Somewhere in the ad will appear, in small print, words that say restored or refinished or refurbished, etc. As long as they initial seller does not alter the serial number on the receiver(a Federal crime) it is legal even if he alters every other marking on the gun. The fraud will come later when the 1st. buyer sells the piece as all original. His defense will,of course, be that he didn't know it.Just as when shady car dealers sell an automobile that has been totaled then rebuilt. My feeling is you can not make the guns good enough to fool anyone who does his homework before investing his cash.

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Dave Davis


kroh
Dennis Kroh-Owner Empire Arms Gunboards Sponsor



USA
1335 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 1:52:04 PM
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I have heard this also, and have even been approached by several people to be a "source" for the rifles to be used in this operation.

Just for the record, EMPIRE ARMS has REFUSED and we will continue to REFUSE to be any part of such a travesty.

I was told IN PERSON (no "rumors" here) that the parts that are to be utilized will all appear to have the correct codes and types, and that import markings will be removed from the barrel (which is LEGAL. . . it is only illegal to remove import markings if it includes a serial number).

There will absolutely NOT be any markings indicating these rifles are rebuilt or altered, and the perpetuators of this scheme indeed BRAG that no one (even the "experts") will be able to tell the difference between the finished product and legitimate "bringbacks" (this, of course, remains to be seen).

If the work being done is high-quality enough the end-result will be the lowering of prices of the original "bringbacks", (which are IMHO too high-priced anyway) unless documentation can be shown that they were possessed before 1993 (when the very first 30,000 RC 98k's arrived) or 2002 (when the second and subsequent batches of RC Mausers were imported).

This is an instance where the ATF-mandated bound-books of C&R holders can be a PLUS, since if a C&R holder has their 98k in their sequential bound-book with a date of acquisition before 2002 this should suffice as proof (the 1993-imported rifles having long ago been dispersed and are unlikely to be utilized in this "project").

The best way to tell if such "alteration" has been done on these rifles will likely be inspection of the left side of the stock (where the Russians stamped the serial number). The re-worked and re-stamped 98k's I have seen that were recently imported from Germany all showed traces of either this number OR evidence that the wood had been "shaved" in this area to remove the number. Of course, nothing can stop the "manufacturers" from using new stocks in their project.

Since most import-marks are pretty deeply stamped under the muzzle any evidence of irregularity or "work" in this area would also be a tip-off. It is a pretty good guess that the Russian "X" capture markings (if present) will be removed in some fashion as well.

If suspicions are high, caring customer-friendly dealers like myself would gladly search their records to try to locate suspect rifles by serial-number (since it is illegal to alter the serial number on any firearm and easy to tell if it was, I doubt that this would be done). Of course we could only look for the many thousand of 98k's that have passed through our hands (and this would only take us SECONDS to do). I have in the past exposed several "all-matching" rifles that were NOT matching when they passed through our hands in this fashion. In one case the bolt had been renumbered to match, in another the entire rifle had been renumbered to match the receiver (and they did a piss-poor job of it as well).

I seriously doubt that importers such as Century Arms or Tennessee Guns would be so eager to assist in that fashion unless this was a service someone was willing to PAY for (much like a Colt "factory-letter").

I have known this day was coming for quite some time. . . considering the very high DEMAND for "all-matching" 98k's (and the fact that such activity IS LEGAL), this was (unfortunately) inevitable.

Like the original poster said, this really isn't anything "new". . . at LEAST HALF of the "all-matching" 98k rifles I see for sale at gunshows at the present time are "humped". . . it's just likely to get WORSE.

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Dennis Kroh, owner

use this link: http://64.82.96.51





GunGuy 1
Gunboards Member



USA
87 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 2:33:20 PM
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6110.2. Possession of firearm with altered manufacturer's number.

(a) General rule. - No person shall possess a firearm which
has had the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver
altered, changed, removed or obliterated.

(b) Penalty. - A person who violates this section commits a
misdemeanor of the first degree.

(c) Definition. - As used in this section, the term "firearm"
shall have the same meaning as that term is defined in section 6105(i)
(relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell
or transfer firearms), except that the term shall not include antique
firearms as defined in section 6118 (relating to antique firearms).



6117. Altering or obliterating marks of identification.

(a) Offense defined. - No person shall change, alter, remove,
or obliterate the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or
receiver of any firearm which shall have the same meaning as provided
in section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture,
control, sell or transfer firearms).

(b) Presumption. - Possession of any firearm upon which any
such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated
shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered,
removed or obliterated the same.

(c) Penalty. - A violation of this section constitutes a
felony of the second degree.


Now, this is Pennsylvania law. Im sure it is similar in other states.



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A jelly doughnut?


kroh
Dennis Kroh-Owner Empire Arms Gunboards Sponsor



USA
1335 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 2:39:19 PM
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That is only in reference to the SERIAL NUMBER of the weapon. Import-marks CAN be removed UNLESS it incorporates a serial number (like the recent imports of Persian and Russian rifles and pistols that use non-Western script or numerals for serial numbers).

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Dennis Kroh, owner

use this link: http://64.82.96.51





HerrMesser
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
234 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 3:59:55 PM
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Was that law on the alteration of serial number enacted prior to or after 1968?

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NRA Life Member

It's all mind over matter, if you don't mind it doesn't matter


kroh
Dennis Kroh-Owner Empire Arms Gunboards Sponsor



USA
1335 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 4:47:21 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by HerrMesser

Was that law on the alteration of serial number enacted prior to or after 1968?
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Firearms were not even required to HAVE a serial number until 1968. . . it is entirely legal to have a firearm without a serial number as long as one was not originally stamped on it, it is ILLEGAL to have possession of a firearm on which the original serial number has been removed or altered.

Note that many imported firearms never had a serial number on their receiver, especially if they were manufactured in countries in which the BARREL (rather than the receiver) is the licensed part. Importers have only recently have been required to serialize the receivers of weapons without a serial #.

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Dennis Kroh, owner

use this link: http://64.82.96.51





bearbaregun
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
333 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 5:57:13 PM
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Is this work being done in the US? If so, and apparently people know who is behind it somehow they should be exposed.

I just don't get how this isn't a crime, no matter how you look at it they are "conspiring" to defraud. Of course they are only defrauding "nut case gun owners" so this probably doesn't really take a high priority with most people in authority.


The Great Billdildoe
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1910 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 6:20:08 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by kroh


quote:
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Originally posted by HerrMesser

Was that law on the alteration of serial number enacted prior to or after 1968?
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Firearms were not even required to HAVE a serial number until 1968. . . it is entirely legal to have a firearm without a serial number as long as one was not originally stamped on it, it is ILLEGAL to have possession of a firearm on which the original serial number has been removed or altered.

Note that many imported firearms never had a serial number on their receiver, especially if they were manufactured in countries in which the BARREL (rather than the receiver) is the licensed part. Importers have only recently have been required to serialize the receivers of weapons without a serial #.

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Dennis ; I had always been told it was in 1959 that non serialed weapons were no longer allowed to be made or imported. But then again that could hve been a state law I was told at the time. I have a brace of gorgeous JC Higgin's model 20 12 bores that were never serialed and have seen them every now and then...good shot shooters they are too.
I also have to applaud you on your stance regarding the nefarious side of collecting WW2 german arms.It's been that bad for over a decade , one of the MAIN reasons I got disgusted with collecting such period german arms. Too much hokey pokey going on with anything 'nazi era' for money , prestige and yeah more money.
I was offered stupid money for my hoard of armorer's parts (98k), but let two collector friends have it all - and they have them all to this day.
I wonder of this scheme is from the venerated ( and I use the term mockingly ) "transarms".... as the rumor was KK behind the scenes at TA was doing just this very thing.Sad , but not unexpected.

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" The vice of capitolsim is it's unequal sharing of blessings ;
The Virtue of socialism is it's equal sharing of misery "
Winston Churchill.


gew88guy
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
6193 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 6:22:57 PM
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The Colt SA collectors use a frame gauge to see if a pistol has been altered - surely something like that can be devised for 98ks.

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~ An honest tale speeds best,
being plainly told. ~

Who is this man and why is he trying to save my country?

liberalism is a mental disorder

Imperial German Regimental Markings

Das Heereswaffenampt




HerrMesser
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
234 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 6:53:50 PM
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I purchased a Savage Model 24 back in 67 or 68 that was made in USA that had no serial number. At least I thing it was made here. And I wish I still had it.

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NRA Life Member

It's all mind over matter, if you don't mind it doesn't matter


k98kman
Starting Member



4 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 02:23:09 AM
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Gentlemen,I have been aware of one dealer here in Germany who is active in the field of faking for increasing his profit.Moreover is this person one of the biggest importers/exporter and is exporting his fakes into the US, too. Unfortunately the interested customers are not forwarned what they will buy. So the facts are clear that this is a criminal way of business. For myself, I rely on private sources for buying collectibles or prefer serious dealers.
Reagards k98man


boltactionsforever
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1719 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 08:02:43 AM
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I am pretty sure Mitchell's Mausers would love to have a hand in this, and my bets are YEP they will!....they already state they can "do-get-have" death heads/SS marked--etc. at a unbelievable rate....Obvious stamped by themselves.... I enquired about a code in which "has not been seen" with death heads---and there reply was, they have death head mark's on just about every code made---hummmmm, we all know better, and even "IF" every code was/had a example with death head(dont believe so)--Odd's of someone having EVERY code with death heads for sale--DOES NOT HAPPEN period!..They are fakes period

Mark my word, if they come in--Mitchell's will be all over it!.....

They have ZERO problem's with deception as it is...so a few redone k98's would be right down there path!......

FYI



BAF

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"the only way to fix that poor gun my lad"....

"Is to find the time machine that is set to one day before Vic' got his hands on it"


zampilot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3991 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 08:56:16 AM
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Gee, just the other day this rumor had no basis in fact.

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I'd like a Riihimaki M/28-30, just to round things out!
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket1.html


Dave Davis
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
179 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 12:43:54 PM
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"Retrieved and restored to like new condition by our experts in Germany" according to Mitchell's Mausers web site and only $2,500.00 for a common field issue piece with rare guns for up to $10,000.00.In a fitted presentation case no less. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm going out right now and raise cash to take advantage of this fantastic offer.

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Dave Davis

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Edited by - Dave Davis on 02/10/2005 12:44:36 PM


ditch68
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
340 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 1:56:51 PM
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Man, I just had to visit the site, and I about barfed. I was speechless. Really.

By the way, the $10,000 piece is a "real" SS sniper rifle with (quote) "Storm Trooper" marking and deathshead stamps. Single rune, with totenkopfs and a scope mount. Hmm...

And also, the presentation case is an additional 800.00, and they come with a copy of BBOTW (or "Sniper Variations" as appropriate for the sniper rifles. Yes. Appropriate indeed.) for an extra 69.95. At least they didn't overinflate that price.

Unreal. But someone, somewhere, actually buys this crap. Amazing.

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"Never say Never"
11B
Visit my website on Czech produced German small arms -
http://www.cagedlion.com





boltactionsforever
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1719 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 2:57:47 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dave Davis

"Retrieved and restored to like new condition by our experts in Germany" according to Mitchell's Mausers web site and only $2,500.00 for a common field issue piece with rare guns for up to $10,000.00.In a fitted presentation case no less. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm going out right now and raise cash to take advantage of this fantastic offer.

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Agree...Hey Dave---I'll save some room on my table at the gun show---maybe we can sell enough beanie-babies to pay for a "select grade" all matching "Storm trooper" edition!.....


Sounds pretty rare to me!.....

Days' gottsta be real.....Mitchell's say's so!

FYI



BAF

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"the only way to fix that poor gun my lad"....

"Is to find the time machine that is set to one day before Vic' got his hands on it"

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Edited by - boltactionsforever on 02/10/2005 3:02:33 PM


kroh
Dennis Kroh-Owner Empire Arms Gunboards Sponsor



USA
1335 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 3:39:23 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by zampilot

Gee, just the other day this rumor had no basis in fact.

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Apples and oranges. What was discussed in the other post "just the other day" was the rumor of UNREWORKED ALL-MATCHING rifles from the Ukrane. . . there *IS* a difference.

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Dennis Kroh, owner

use this link: http://64.82.96.51





JHaines
Gunboards Member



USA
71 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 3:51:41 PM
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quote:
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I have heard this also, and have even been approached by several people to be a "source" for the rifles to be used in this operation.

Just for the record, EMPIRE ARMS has REFUSED and we will continue to REFUSE to be any part of such a travesty.

I was told IN PERSON (no "rumors" here) that the parts that are to be utilized will all appear to have the correct codes and types, and that import markings will be removed from the barrel (which is LEGAL. . . it is only illegal to remove import markings if it includes a serial number).

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Hey Dennis -

You should blow the whistle on the people that approached you to be a source for these rifles.

With so many shady dealers and deals that go down in the C&R Firearms business, it takes a long time to establish a good reputation, and that's really all you have (not you personally, I'm referring to each and every one of us - our reputations are all we have - and a good reputation can take you FAR).

If someone is stealing money (and that's exactly what I think it is) by renumbering rifles and claiming that they are authentic originals, they should be exposed, and their name forever attached to shady deals. Once your reputation is ruined in these circles, that's it....and these bottom feeders don't deserve any better.

Just my two cents.

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Edited by - JHaines on 02/13/2005 1:00:47 PM


Mike442
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
473 Posts
Posted - 02/12/2005 : 6:38:56 PM
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This question is mainly for Dennis Kroh but anyone who knows can answer. I have recently come across a lot of rifles that have original serial numbers on the receivers and are all matching to the other parts of the rifles. However, the original matching serial numbers on the receivers had a line thru them and a new serial numbers electro penciled by machine (nealy done)next to the original serial number. Can you tell me what the reason is for putting a new serial number on a receiver that already has an original stamped serial number that matches the rest of the rifle? To me, it decreased the collectibility of the piece and serves no real purpose that I can see. But I'm sure they are doing it for a reason.


zampilot
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
3991 Posts
Posted - 02/13/2005 : 08:00:29 AM
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"Apples and oranges. What was discussed in the other post "just the other day" was the rumor of UNREWORKED ALL-MATCHING rifles from the Ukrane. . . there *IS* a difference."==

As I posted 'the other day' to which you responded, substitue "Ukraine" for "SE USA". Apples and Apples.

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I'd like a Riihimaki M/28-30, just to round things out!
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket1.html


Scott B
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
312 Posts
Posted - 02/13/2005 : 09:42:13 AM
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There is nothing these mopes can make today which will not be identifiable as new production. As a rule these idiots have proven not to be serious students of the subject and the end result should reflect this. In any case, an original mint specimen will look different than new production no matter how knowledgable they are. Rifles are much more difficult to do well than pistols.

The real issue here was touched on in an earlier comment. The culture of our hobby (collectors arms and militaria) is to accept and tolerate fraudulant behavior. Although recognized as marginally wrong it is not treated as the crime which it is. I have debated this over the years with fellow collectors. Their argument goes that its the buyers duty to know better (caveat emptor) and anyways its all part of the game. My less sophisticated view is that I will treat it like someone trying to steal my wallet in a back alley.

The hobby knows the collectors and dealers who manufacture and/or purvey these frauds at shows. Some are pretty big names. However, instead of taking them to court, boycotting them or screaming fruad at their table they are tolerated and still patronized in the event they have a legit treasure. This is the greed of the collector at work. Personally I wont deal with a fraudster. I am willing to sacrifice missing some good things to not deal with vermin. A perfect example of this is the Ex-Antiques Roadshow creep who got busted by the feds for defrauding the ancestors of the Pickett family. He also committed fraud on Antiques Roadshow. Very high profile cases and published in many civil war related magazines. Instead of booting this POS from all shows, he continues to slither around in his cheesy suit at all the major shows. Myself and several other collectors complained at a local Civil War show where he set up immediately after being convicted. The show promoter said he understood our issues, but some people still liked him, so he refused to do anything. If it were my show, I wouldnt have let him degrade through his presence. Most reputable shows have the ability to deny people access to shows for any reason they want nevermind such crimianl behavior. However they choose not too. A few of us honest folks are playing in a sea of moral imbeciles. Its our choice either way.

Scott B
 
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