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Discussion Starter #1
Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 3:42:17 PM
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Has anyone purchased a russian capture from SOG or anyone else that were SS marked and/or with death heads ? SOG has them in their most recent catalog for 700$. Anyone get one of these? Can anyone vouch for their authenticity? Is there any possiblity that they are fakes?

Regards,
Dancbtmkr

kroh
Dennis Kroh-Owner Empire Arms Gunboards Sponsor



USA
1335 Posts
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 5:01:23 PM
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EMPIRE ARMS had some death-head and single-rune Russian captures from this latest batch that we sold early this year. We offer a 100% moneyback guarantee of authenticity on the ones we have handled.

Having not seen the rifles SOG currently has, I cannot say whether or not those are legit, but it is certainly possible and even probable that they are.

If you get one and decide that it is not authentic they may allow you to return it for refund. . . I would ask them if you are considering doing this.

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Dennis Kroh, owner

use this link: http://64.82.96.51





Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 08:51:18 AM
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Dennis,

What were they selling for, the ones that you had???

Dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 09:28:48 AM
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Cole Distributing will e-mail you their "select list" which contains a selection of single rune BNZ coded rifles. You can e-mail them from their web-site and they will send you the list back as an attachment. Their list will tell you code, type of stock, type of buttplate, whether the swasticas under the eagles are pinged, and overall condition.

This is what I got from Mr. Cole.

Download Attachment:
36.81 KB


TheKid
Gunboards Moderator & Former Member Of Run DMC



USA
3357 Posts
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 10:46:49 AM
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That is one nice looking rifle

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TheKid

COG #007

JUGGALOMy new Tat......


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 11:39:29 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by TheKid

That is one nice looking rifle

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Thanks. TheKid should know, he was there when I picked it up at the Lexington show. I had a little case of buyer's remorse driving home that day. TheKid didn't help matters by saying, "shooooweeee, that's a lotta money for a little marking." When I finally decide to do some "house cleaning" and get rid of excess K98's I've picked up over the years, this BNZ will stay.

I feel better though when I see $500.00 C stocked 1903's from the CMP that are uuuuuugly!


Franz 1796
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1323 Posts
Posted - 10/17/2003 : 12:24:17 PM
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I purchased a bnz 43 single rune from Cole's also. I am very happy with the purchase. I was also originally concerned about the authenticity of the item, not because I doubted Cole's, but more for resale value if I ever wanted to sell it. After reading more about these rifles on the forum I decided to purchase one. The extra cost of the single rune is worth it to me becuase of the history and rarity of these rifles. Other's disagree with this, but that's OK. It's my money and I'm thrilled with my new rifle.


Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/18/2003 : 11:32:55 AM
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How much did the ones from Cole's cost with the single runes?

Dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 08:48:09 AM
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They seem to run primarily in the $450.00 to $550.00 range.


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 08:51:41 AM
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They seem to run primarily in the $450.00 to $550.00 range.


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:15:55 AM
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I know I will be attacked for this, but here goes anyway: I am concerned that the bnz 42 depicted has a single rune to begin with (a late '43 and '44 feature) and that it has a final proof on top of the receiver, which is not a single rune characteristic. This does not make sense unless somehow this receiver was rejected and recycled after final assembly then diverted to the SS contract. With RC's in the $150-200 range and everywhere all the time and a simple rune popped in the receiver stimulating interest and 150% more money, well............... Let the attacks begin.

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Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:36:52 AM
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Forgeries are always possible, but , being a SS identification rookie, how does one definitably asertain weather a Rune/deathhead mauser to be authentic. ? (my Backbone of the Wehrmacht is in the mail)

Dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


3371940
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
211 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:49:59 AM
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Hambone:

I have to agree with you. When I bought my single rune from Cole's I made sure it fit the accepted convention for such specimens. Not to say that the above rifle is a fake, it’s just that there’d be enough doubt for me to look at another.

I trust Gary Cole and Dennis Kroh when they say that this is how they cam out of the shipping crate. And, if you’re looking to sell such a piece, the original receipt should satisfy a collector familiar with those upstanding dealers and/or these forums.

However, if a potential buyer is unfamiliar with these boards or the aforementioned dealers, then they will probably pass on an inconsistent piece.




Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 10:35:38 AM
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We have a bit of a problem. It is said that all of these RC's are providing new and enlightening information about German rifle production and "deaths head" and "SS rifles" in particular. I do agree with this to an extent. However, do not think for a minute that this "theory" cannot be (and is not) the basis for explaining fakery and that there are those out there who would knock a rune in a rifle for $300. Many have done much more for less. To the reader: Please save your bile and personal attacks for I could give a rat's a$$ other than as a student of these things. I am not a consumer of them. But think of the economics involved and the effort necessary to make a windfall. The DH and rune proofs are out there. Again, please, if you require proof that fake SS dies are out there before accepting this statement then I respectfully submit that you are not sufficiently versed in this topic to comment on it (intelligently or otherwise) nor do you merit a reply.

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Edited by - Hambone on 10/20/2003 10:36:45 AM


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 11:20:30 AM
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No attack here Mr. Hambone.
In fact, when I posted this rifle after purchase I was hoping for your input.
I agree that this gun has "some explaining to do."
It's a 1942 serial 6847 without letter block suffix....so far so good.
However, it has both a perfectly clear "district number" roman numeral ten (not a capture x)which you can see part of on the left side of the receiver in the picture AND the clear WaA stamp.
As I've stated, according to the Mauthausen web-site, the KZ Gusen facility for arms manufacture was not open for production until May of 1943. It "could be" that the WaA inspectors were proofing SS rifles while they were being produced at Steyr's corporate facilities....they were standing right there. Steyr had already been utilizing slave labor at their normal production facilities (provided by the SS from Mauthausen) in the "guns for labor" exchange and there had to have been weapons being sent by Steyr to the SS during that period.

We need to see more examples of 1941-1942 SS rifles and perhaps some early 1943 rifles to accurately guage what an "early" Steyr SS rifle should look like. We already seem to know that the single-rune rifles produced at KZ Gusen from May '43 on, do not, and would not, have the WaA inspectors' mark.


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 12:18:29 PM
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Thanks for your courtesies JS. The reason I have about stopped commentary is because there are people here who ask for opinions, but what they really want is affirmation, not critique. When they are told what they don't want to hear, they get angry and make silly personal attacks. Anyway, most things are possible I guess. I rarely (if ever) say never. However, is it more plausible that a simple rune got popped on a receiver for profit or that the rifle is a legitimate anomoly? Regrettably, one must err on the side of caution these days. People have been popping runes and DH's in 98k's for over 20 years. Having said that, I'm sure the next thing I'll hear is how these rune rifles never saw the light of day since leaving the East Bloc, how everyone witnessed them being uncrated for the first time, etc. etc. Buy the rifle not the story. Now, the district mark on this piece is interesting JS and you make valid points. But has a new rule been established?

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J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 12:59:01 PM
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Well said Hambone, and no one can fault your rationale.
I specifically bought from Coles becase he's been hoarding a wide selection of the more interesting codes and variations. I didn't really intend to buy a single rune from him and was really looking for the best 660 code example I could find. However, after examining this rifle I couldn't resist how pretty it was. The photo isn't a trick of light....this rifle SHINES. No capture mark, no black paint, no corrosion, no gouges, no pings, beautiful unmarred finish.
I'm just a sucker for a pretty face.


Franz 1796
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1323 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 1:12:30 PM
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Hambone, I for one always appreciate you input on these controvercial issues and don't see how anyone can really argue with you on this point. Any single rune that is outside the BBOTW "standard" will be questioned as a fake. That's just the way its going to be. I also noticed the proof mark at the top of the reciever in the picture (which it should not have according to BBOTW). The fact that most single runes don't have this proof mark, but other non-single runes do, made me more comfortable with a single rune purchase. I just figured it's harder to remove a mark without leaving a tell tale sign. Adding a stamp seems much easier than removing one.


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 1:52:19 PM
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Franz, you are correct and thanks for your kind comments. With the concentric receiver mill marks it is extremely difficult to remove such a proof without leaving signs of tinkering. The nonexistence of this proof, with no letter suffix, and a rune, on a bnz 43, or bnz 4 leaves little doubt about such pieces in my mind. BOTW has mistakes, as does all reference material. We as humans are fallible, but those humans that take the time to produce reference should be lauded, not hammered. That said, BOTW is a source of information only, as is this board, our observations, etc. It is definitely NOT the last word on hardly anything as it can merely confirm, not refute. JS, that may be the original finish on that weapon. If so, you did good. And I'm not going out on a limb to say that rifle is not a legit SS contract given your reasoned analysis. The paranoia did not come first, the fakery did. That's a shame. Remember though, the Europeans and old East Bloc get Shotgun News and peruse these websites too. They know our market as well as we do. Thanks for sharing the pic JS.

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Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 2:15:04 PM
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OK, so for us dummies, a BNZ 43 or 44 without the proofmark atop the BNZ on the receiver, with a single rune would be a safe bet? Are there any other 'tell-tale' marks that I should look for? Are there any other unusual mausers out there that I can look for? Something of interest, not just to say "there were only XXXX of these made".

Thanks,
Dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2003 : 8:23:57 PM
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Mr Paul Caruso
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
755 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 03:34:15 AM
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Nice rifle Dan. It also has a district number, sounds like you got two birds with one stone. I tend to believe it is legit, for a couple of reasons.
1) You bought it directly from Coles and not some individual. I find coles and empire to be two honest companies.
2) It has a district mark and the rune. I bought a few of these rc's from Coles and the district rifles were about 350.00 or so. Now, if Coles wanted to fake a rune on a district rifle, I would think the cost would be much higher. If someone is going to make fakes, they are doing it to make money. My two cents.

regards,
Conrad (internet hero w/ a few RCs and a book or two)




mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 08:14:26 AM
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Has anyone ever done a serial # study on the single rune rifles? Reason I ask- as many rifles that came in with the RC's, they couldn't be as rare as BOTW states- seems like a lot percentage wise. I am not suggesting fakery, but perhaps the single rune guns were not numbered the same as regular army K98 production- i.e., when they got to 9999 they turned back over to 0 and started over. Does it not seem like a possibility? And where do rifles like mine fit in- ones that have all of the charachteristics of single rune guns, but without the runes (no waffenamts, firing proof, etc.)? I too have a few RC's in my collection of original guns- you can get a lot of enjoyment for $175.00.

Download Attachment:
91.83 KB

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com

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Edited by - mrfarb on 10/21/2003 08:16:19 AM


Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member



330 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 09:16:58 AM
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A point that many forget is that the SS used millions of K98k rifles. Are SS proofed guns really that rare? Perhaps not as rare as collectors who own large numbers of them would have us believe!

I can believe that some SS/RC are fake that are now coming into America. I can also believe that millions of SS proofed guns captured in the East, where the SS primarily fought and died, are also cominmg in now that the Iron Curtain is down and our Federal importation regulations have been satisfied concerning the 5 year wait.

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Anthony Fortino


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 11:05:06 AM
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Good points all. But do not fall into the trap of working to hard to justify that which is suspect. No dealer is above being questioned regarding his wares. Why? Several reasons: 1) Cole and Kroh, while I'm sure they are likely swell chaps, are not 98k experts nor really knowledgeable beyond BOTW. 2) We don't have a complete chain of custody on these things. 3) Lots of tales and conjecture justifying things that don't follow that which is conclusively known. 4) Basing pedigree on the milsurp dealer that imported it is not definitive and any serious collector will pay no more for that reason. 5) Our friends from the old Eastbloc get SGN and GL too and they understand our markets and pricing as well as we do. 6) Fake SS dies and conmen are out there in numbers. 7) Lots of profit motive in netting $300+ for every die strike on a rifle. Now, before I get jumped by the cheerleaders and those lacking reading comprehension skills, please note: I have no dog in this fight at all, other than to learn. I could care less about anything but establishing the truth. I don't collect RC's (though I appreciate them) and I do no business with Kroh or Cole (though I appreciate them; any dealer (Kroh) offering a 100% money back lifetime authenticity guarantee is OK and to be supported). I don't care whether RC SS rifles sell for $15 or $15,000.
Regards,
Hambone

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Edited by - Hambone on 10/21/2003 11:06:55 AM


Gewehr455
Gunboards Super Premium Member



450 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 11:53:46 AM
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A bit of caution goes a long way. Just ask the guys who bought the Star model B's with Waffenampts a couple of years ago. They were guaranteed to be original also. They have since been exposed as fakes. I remember that Coles was selling them, I'm not sure about Empire (correct me if I'm wrong on this). I belive the fake German markings were applied in Europe. Hopefully some refunds were issued? Just be careful guys.




Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 12:17:11 PM
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Gew., spot on brother. However, what will soon happen is our bashing for daring to comment re these dealers. Those guys stuck with the fake WaA Stars blindly believed. Sorry, but I do not EVER base ANY purchase upon what ANY DEALER tells me. A dealer is either right, wrong, or dishonest. One in three. That said, if Kroh guarantees the authenticity of his wares for life, well, he is to be commended and recommended. You get what you pay for in the way of goods and service.

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howiebearse
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1375 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 4:32:08 PM
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i would like to give mr hambone credit for speaking his piece. plenty of fake items exist in the collecting of German WW2 items its a known fact. also these rifles were sold un doubtedly at the source for the same price fpor all that are in the crate. which in the case of these bastardised RC rifles is the right thing to do as they are just interesting pieces of history. somewhere between the seller and buyer comes the fakery that will bring some people allot of money. i am a collector and would if collecting German 98k riflres fill in the bare spots with RC rifles to have the receiver markings for what i was missing but i think these rifles are a buyer beware as to spending too much on them. reguardless of guarentees. just my opinion. I collect chinese sks rifles bt factory code and luckely that have not been faked but i aure you many of the factory codes are rarer than the 98 k codes when examples here in this country eventually come to light. i think they are every bit as interesting as the 98k is to collecting. finally a question where are the death head proof found i have never seen an example.


howiebearse
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1375 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 4:34:32 PM
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sorry about the awfull typos next time i will read it before posting:)


Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 4:41:01 PM
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OK, with all that said, and this thread has gotten to be more than I bargined for, is getting a RC BNZ 43 with a single rune likely to be a fake then? Should I suspect that the RC's are all fakes as far as the single rune ones? What might a death head NON RC rifle be expected to draw money wise? I have a line on one, and wonder if this guy is asking a fair price??? It's not the $, it's the idea I don't want fakery, I want a real concentration camp product!!

Thanks,
Dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


howiebearse
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1375 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 5:14:20 PM
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as to the number of rifles produced the mauthausen websight says k2 gusen produced 22000 rifles per month after starting may 43 if that is true must be allot of single rune rifles coming back in made by bnz 43 on


Mr Paul Caruso
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
755 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 5:32:53 PM
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Howie,
That might be the answer someone earlier asked about the serial #'s of these single runes. I can't imagine only 10000 rifles produced for the SS each year. It just doesn't add up.

C


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 6:21:48 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by howiebearse

as to the number of rifles produced the mauthausen websight says k2 gusen produced 22000 rifles per month after starting may 43 if that is true must be allot of single rune rifles coming back in made by bnz 43 on

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May 1943
Stone-Production lowered; DEST starts cooperation with Steyr-Daimler-Puch (SDP) at KZ Gusen I
(SDP produces with 22,000 rifles per months nearly 10% of all-German production - a good deal of it at KZ Gusen)

www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/gusen/gubh001/x.htm


Here is my "cut and paste" of the text. It does not break down the numbers produced at KZ Gusen as opposed to Steyr's own nearby facilities. The 22K annual numbers fit in with known Steyr (total) production of 217,880 in 1943. BTW, prior to the opening of the Steyr rifle production at KZ Gusen, Steyr only produced 130k in 1940; 109k in 1941; and 117k in 1942. Given these number we "could" contribute an easy 90,000 rifles per year to the KZ Gusen facility.

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Edited by - J.Stein on 10/21/2003 6:22:59 PM


J.Stein
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2970 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 6:28:22 PM
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Another neat quote relating to the relocation of the Polish armaments industry to Mauthausen to avoid Russian capture:

"September 1944
SDP-plants of RADON and WARSZAWA evacuated to KZ Gusen (414 railway-cars and 69 trucks)
Arbeitsgemeinschaft WNF-Gyoer evacuated to Bergkristall (capacity: 500 Me-262 jet-planes per months"

And, lest we forget the people who crafted the instruments we collect and study:

"January 1, 1941
Mauthausen-Gusen camps become the only Category I camps in Third Reich History
(meaning: camp of no return)"


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Edited by - J.Stein on 10/21/2003 6:41:02 PM


mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2003 : 7:26:25 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mr Paul Caruso

That might be the answer someone earlier asked about the serial #'s of these single runes. I can't imagine only 10000 rifles produced for the SS each year. It just doesn't add up.
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This is my problem with the Single Rune series of rifles. I consider myself a particular collector of bnz guns- I have several nice 45 dated examples, and search out rare guns. There is another aspect to the single rune guns- I now have 2 bnz guns with the single rune stamped at the base of the barrel, under the wood line (one 44 dated RC and one 99% untouched bnz45, T block). These were supposedly leftover parts shipped to styer after the Russians overran the Concentration Camp facilities- both are lacking a final firing proof on the top of the reciever, both are numbered in the army serial range. That said- if a company had a contract to make guns, would they not continue to honor thier contract until the end? I personally think it's possible the SS gun production was continued until the end, but perhaps we will never know- a true serial number study would be the only way to find out, but I think that too is nearly impossible. But, to the point- how many folks out there have BNZ43 serial number XXXX ? If I were a betting man, I would bet more than a few!

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 12:17:20 AM
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Wow, thanks for letting me get through that without a thrashing
Dancbt, check out the pic I posted, and note the description of the standard known characteristics of bnz 43 and bnz 4 single rune production would be. These RC's are providing very good information and expanding the info on 98k's. You will find MORE W-SS rifles mixed in with RC's because that is where the W-SS fought and that is where the W-SS (and the majority of the Wehrmacht) fought, died, and was captured. I'm not saying SS RC's are fake. Quite the contrary. But I am saying don't let the fact that a rifle has a rune or DH and is an RC, and has an excuse for being nonstandard, be a reason to pay a premium. We need to get a sticky on this and start compiling single rune serials and codes. If we get duplicate serials we may get an idea as to how many were produced.

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Park Ranger
Gunboards Premium Member



187 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 10:59:41 AM
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Would the Waffen SS have recieved K98 Mauser rifles from the same depots as the army? It would take alot of time to seperate the rifles in an armory to stamp ones to be issued to SS troops.


The Great Billdildoe
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1910 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2003 : 6:34:51 PM
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PR ; The SS actually did not draw 98k's from heer stocks. That is why the SS went through the efforts to refurb gewehrs to 98k's to the extent and as late as they did. Also the large use of Vz24's by them.
The SS was given damaged 98k's by the heer HzA system that the HzA declared not economical to repair , and the SS as well salvaged many a 98k from the battlefield and reissued it to their troops.The damaged 98k's given and those salvaged represent the majority of 98k's the SS fielded. The single rune marked bnz's and bnz known SS contract ( no runes no final heer proofing )were at first an end run around the authority of the HzA to acquire rifles. The SS had enough political power at that time to continue such deliveries after the HzA got wind of this and tried to quash that pipeline of rifles.
Politics baby - gotta luv 'em.


Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member



330 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:23:08 PM
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What about all the Vet/Non-Rc SS guns that appear to have Eagle/H proofed stocks, some with SS Tote's etc. added?

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Anthony Fortino


The Great Billdildoe
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1910 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 7:14:30 PM
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Anthony ; did you read my post close ?. The SS salvaged alot of lost/abondoned Heer and luftwaffe rifles from the field of battle as well as Heer dumping damaged rifles on the SS.
These rifles were heer proofed , and the SS did not bother to scrub off heer proofs - only add their totehead(s)while they were still using such proofs.Have had a couple and seen a bunch more former heer later SS refurbed issued 98k's.All the major repaired of these I noted E/N commercial proofs on the receiver as well as the appropriate proofing on the bottom of the barrel and all were 1940-41 dated there. Have yet to see a 42 or post 42 date SS proof mark/assembly such as these or earlier SS rebuilt/converted rifles.


Anthony
Gunboards Super Premium Member



330 Posts
Posted - 10/23/2003 : 7:56:37 PM
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Bill-thanks for the clarification. What about later guns such as bnz 43 Single Rune , 4 Single Rune, and 45 Rune On Bottom Barrel? I have seen Eagle/H stocks on some of these SS variations with the correct SS proofing as well. This doesn't include the latest RC imports. These bnz guns could not have been reclaimed as the earlier variations that you write about.

I am also one of the group that has seen 43 dated death head GEW98 and K98k reworks, again with Eagle/H stocks, but on that point it fits your above explanation as to why. You just haven't seen any in your travels with that late a date.

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Anthony Fortino


The Great Billdildoe
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1910 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 12:13:39 AM
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Anthony; I have not seen any legitimate post 1941 "alleged SS rework" that conforms to anywhere near the known pattern that existed.
The single rune on bottom of the barrel or on internal parts IS NOT an indiactor of SS issue. I have had a couple bcd42's and a bcd 43 that were straight heer issue and all three had a small set of SS runes stamped on the bottom of the receiver. Now bcd was a party owned enterprise and I have noted many odd marks on bcd rifles such as maltese crosses on the bottom of some receivers. But SS issue - sorry can no buy into that. The rivalry and contempt the heer had for the SS was what fueled the HzA continual blocking of direct issue of rifles to the SS via Heer issue.And in that it never changed ( officially ). If there is a single rune on a bnz and it has a heer proofed stock - the fish is rotten in denmark.The main reason the single rune was instituted and displayed prominently from what I understand is due to the heer not being able to stop supply to the SS ( another control issue by apparatchniks ), but being able to get these non heer inspected and as they considered substandard rifles marked with the rune to differentiate them from "their" quality product. Much like the sterne marked gewehrs of the great war.


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 07:13:02 AM
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BD,
I have had two bnz 4 single rune rifles that conformed in every way to known single rune indicia. They were purchased seven years apart, one in the deep South, the other in Pa. The first was a vet return rifle and had never been in a collection. Both have E/H stocks, both were almost identical in parts and assembly, and they were a couple hundred numbers off from each other. Neither was tinkered with and both had matching stocks and handguards (internally numbered). Side by side, they looked about identical in condition. I've pictured the first one, which I still have. My only theory was the stock was reclaimed.
Regards,
Hambone

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mrfarb
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1388 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 08:05:29 AM
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BD,

You seem like a great asset to this board- I do have a few questions as well then. In respect to the bnz45's with the single rune markings on the barrel- I have a T block gun in 98% or better condition- upon disassembly I found the "single rune" marking under the barrel. I was told by another seasoned collector that these parts represented leftovers shipped from the Radom facility to the Steyr facility when the Russians overran the CC factory. I accepted that, until I recieved a RC bnz44 with the same marking under the barrel. First- barrels are marked with the barrel band before assembly, and they are not indexed all the same (some you see, some are under the wood). The single rune markings on the barrels of these 2 guns are exactly like the ones on the bnz4 and bnz43 single rune guns. If these markings were not stamped at the exact same place on the guns I have seen, I would buy it- but these single runes were stamped after assembly. I am not under the impression that these are SS guns- quite the contrary. However, I still don't understand why these guns have a single rune marking- to me, the old story doesn't add up- none of the other single rune guns have single rune markings on the barrel- so why mark all the barrels coming from the plant? To throw a wrench in the works, perhaps the Steyr people did continue the SS contract- within the army contract rifles. If anyone else has one of the single rune barrel bnz45's- do they have the final army acceptance proof on top of the reciever? Mine doesn't have it- quite a mystery if you ask me.

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Check out my website- www.latewar.com


Mr Paul Caruso
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
755 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 5:50:22 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by The Great Billdildoe

Anthony; I have not seen any legitimate post 1941 "alleged SS rework" that conforms to anywhere near the known pattern that existed.

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Ok, here we go again.
Let's put aside whether this rifle is real or fake.
Here's what I have that does indeed conform to the known pattern that existed.

RC 42 1940

Serial in qq range

E/N on receiver

SS2 Tote on barrel

E/N and E/J on bottom of barrel

Fir branch in heart on bottom of barrel

7-43 on bottom of barrel

Bill,
I will assume you forgot about the HUGE debate this rifle created on the MSA board.

Regards,
An internet hero w/ a couple of fake rc SS 98s and a book or two.






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Edited by - Mr Paul Caruso on 10/24/2003 5:51:45 PM


Dancbtmkr
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
130 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 6:26:21 PM
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I was just at my buddies shop today, and he showed me a k98 that this guy copped for another mauser. It was DEFINATELY faked. He faked it to have all matching serials. It was so badly buffed, and 're-waffed' and trying to hide the old ones, that he only gave him going rate for a non match gun (200$?). The guy didn't protest. I've got the guys information. He's loacated in Montoursville, PA, and he's a type 01 gun dealer!! I say we should start a sticky for a running list of guys that are buying guns, faking them, and trying to sell them as good ones. This same guy was at the Pennsdale show, and a collector said, "ya, I saw that gun 3 weeks ago, and it wasn't matching, and now it is"...."magic"....

This guy makes a living of buying guns, and tampering with authenticity and reselling them to some poor collector. Want me to post this guys info? I'll gladly do it. People like that should be just be taken out and shot.

Oh,
on an unrelated topic, is there such a thing as a 29/40 radom with ss markings??? I'm going to be seeing one tomorrow, from a reputable dealer......we'll see....

regards,
dancbtmkr

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Rush is right.


howiebearse
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1375 Posts
Posted - 10/24/2003 : 8:48:17 PM
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there has been some faking on vet bringback sks rifles as well. i think this is the best medium to expose these problems but you damn well have to be sure before you say something that will snowball and not be undone. just my opinion. i usually just pass it between the collectors i know until info can be gathered. the rifle seen non matching then matching is great proof. these forums are the greatest source of info. you just have to be able to back it up.


fireman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



1369 Posts
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 08:03:49 AM
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guys, great thread very informative. Hambone I enjoy your comments and learn much. Please keep it up. I got burned years ago on a K98 and have not bought one since. I will probably pick up a few RC's just to learn a bit and shoot. Dancbtmkr, tell us how you really feel One question is Back Bone of the Wermacht(sp)the best source Is there a decent refrence like the For Collectors only series? thanks


Hambone
I Have A Tina Tuner Style Haircut



2647 Posts
Posted - 10/26/2003 : 10:00:50 PM
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Fireman, thanks for your comments. However, I am but a mere student of these things. Be careful and ask questions here before shelling out big bucks. Backbone is the best single source for the info you need. It has some errors, as do all reference works, but it is a good work.

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Aufaffe
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
307 Posts
Posted - 10/27/2003 : 10:47:11 PM
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quote:
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Thanks for your courtesies JS. The reason I have about stopped commentary is because there are people here who ask for opinions, but what they really want is affirmation, not critique. When they are told what they don't want to hear, they get angry and make silly personal attacks.
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Hambone,

that is the plainest and most accuarate way I have ever heard it put.

LOL

Funny how those mysterious 100% authentic exceptions to the rule keep mysteriously popping up again and again for another try at the Forum seal of approval.

I will stick to directly from the Vet guns on this stuff.

Most of the k98's I buy are all metal matches with stocks cut up to sporterize them..From a local shop that gets lots of dad's bringbacks whith guys trying to trade towards a glock or somthing..I just pay the 150.00 for the rifle get replacement wood and smile at my bank account as well as a rifle that I know is legitimate and gratefull.


Aufaffe
 
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